More rumours of a 1098 engined naked Fighter

You have some valid points Martin, and i'll try and explain apologies for the lengthy post, lucky i'm on holiday this week :) - i don't think its bitter more disillusioned, its really quite simple they no longer make bikes for me and many others, I see them spend energy creating an over priced fighter rather than products that could keep many who've supported them with the brand.
In the past they offered a range of bikes, were more expensive but allowed for those who aspired to own the iconic superbike (whether that be 750SS, 900SS, 888, 916 or 999) a model within the range they could possibly afford or was more "real world" with bikes like the supersport and ST series.

I appreciate developing product isn't cheap, occasionally not cost effective but all I see at the moment is a company prepared to spend time developing fashion bikes and not try and retain the old fan base. I know you keep saying they will but yet another Milan show goes by with nothing "new" and the grand plan always said they would drop the unprofitable models and focus on high profit margin big capacity bikes.

One only has to look at the reaction NCR and Bimota get here, those bikes are just air cooled DS engines and nothing Ducati couldn't do if they wanted, the problem , for me, is they don't want to. Look at the Shiver GT or Morini adventure bike, nothing special in engineering terms, nothing Ducati don't have as a base to work from but they choose not to, sadly even when they do it'll be passed to a "designer" like the SF who has probably never seen BSH, doesn't understand the concept or ethos , I donna why but i always thought an SF was a crashed SBK that got renthalled and TBH thats what I'd do if i wanted a fighter - buy a crashed 1098, flat bar it and make it individual for a lot less than the SF but hey, maybe i think like a real world biker not someone looking for their next fashion bike which just once again pushes me outside where Ducati are now :( i really don't get why was time wasted "developing" a bike like the SF?. The volumes will be tiny, BM and Suzuki both have higher HP bikes, BM even have traction control (porky though :D)and are cheaper yet sell miniscule numbers, the only volume movers are Tuono, SuperDuke and SpeedTriple but look at the retail prices, I really don't understand who did the market research, which once again it just makes me think I'm the one thats at odds with it all ,cos, honestly, I really don't get where a streetfighter fits in my Ducati world when they've already got similar bikes.

Not everyone here can afford a 1098 or 11K Streetfighter, many got into Ducati's on 600SS, ST series or multi's and being frank, Ducati now aren't interested in those owners , there are no mid price supersports, the real world bikes like ST have gone and the multi needs work and i don't see what my next bike could be, sadly i do see bikes from other Italian brands I'd buy though :(

Ducati were the last "volume" Italian brand taking the Japanese on, I admired the way they did that, not going for volume, prepared to take a path the Japanese couldn't. You know the size and type of business I work in, we parallel Ducati in so many ways and I've been influenced by them and many of the "ideas" I've had and adopted in business have come from them, over the last couple of years that has changed quite dramatically. When you lose respect it is difficult to keep the faith!

I'm a bike fan, I don't differentiate by brand, a good bike is a good bike, it doesn't need to say "Ducati" and i won't wear red tinted specs , i look at all other bikes, I'm interested in design, love understanding how manufacturing and technology interact and because of that see where other brands go, I understand the limitations of what Ducati can do, spend time reading their reports and as you know will hunt the web for as much info as i can to gain that knowledge. When a brand gets to a point where many of its fans no longer have a product in the line that fulfills their needs or can afford I'm concerned enough to voice an opinion, those fans are the people I've met and ridden with and many of us are moving to other brands, the friendship will remain but what changes is that we don't need a Ducati.

I'm willing to argue the toss, will always have an opinion but at the same time have been prepared to put a bit back in, sadly that is coming to an end though, I'll continue on with my Sport Classic blog and its small number of readers and enjoy owning my Smart, but am no longer prepared to do the rest, if i do then its understandable that I'll feel that I'm in a position to state my opinion here :D. I've always felt that upnorth should not be tied to toeing the factory line but at the same time appreciate my thoughts can damage your and Charlie's business which wasn't the intention of what was created here so i have to accept I'm the anomaly, getting old and move on.

You are interested in what happens, you run a great shop, are prepared to work at building your business and thats why you get the awards, as has been said, its got little to do with what Ducati supply you !! The fact that you are here trying to understand suggests you have a passion to keep that going and I'm going to be interested to see where it all goes with you and Ducati and whether you do eventually consider another brand to compliment it :D

hopefully the above explanation cover all the reasons my posts may be considered negative it without the need for me to continue this further :D
 
Ding Ding

seconds away - round three.. :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

I have to say VERY valid points from both camps at the moment.
 
Haud On

This thread is taking a bit of a turn for the worst. Michael and I (I think) agree as equally as we disagree.... that's debate, and what forms political parties around the world. IF we all agreed and shared the same views, we'd be living under communism and driving Trabants, although I would like to think that I would have a Trabant R :rolleyes:

I for one could walk away from the Ducati brand tommorrow, I've already stated that several times, unless owning a Ducati was written into law that I'm not aware of, that's my right. If Michael has a gripe about Ducati, then that too is HIS RIGHT... and like I said I agree with a lot Gizmo has said. Likewise what Martin has said, has merit and truth.

Please guys DO NOT turn this into a personal dig, especially against Michael, who to be honest is not only the "keeper of the nuthouse", but is one of the more level headed amongst us :p .


2p
 
Absolutely - this is not personal at all. We're having a grown up debate about differing views about something we are passionate about. I am taking loads of positives from this. Plus I will take those views to my next Ducati meeting as they are valid.

We may not always agree but Michael will always be a mate and a respected member of this community. His work and dedication to this cause are not in question.:tea:

If this seems like it is personal it is not. I'm sure I can speak for Michael as well that we would never let it get even remotely close to that. EVER.
 
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Bob has a valid point folks, however here's something to consider, Ducati is a brand, it has survived many changes of management, different directions from that management yet survives, why and how it does isn't really based on what the owner for a few years does it survives because its fans and loyal dealers are passionate about the ethos of the company and make it the community it is and the differentiator over other brands, if people like me chose to walk away the current Ducati management lose nothing, the fans and long term Ducati owners who've seen all this before will be the only losers long term as places like this die or don't get created....

I'm not one to sit quietly or walk out of back doors, hence why this site even exists, I'll comment here and will do so safe in the knowledge that I don't believe I'm alone in my thinking, if i did i would walk away quietly. None of us have power to influence but we have a voice and I know that despite my arguments or discussions here Martin will pass the feedback on or point those who need to know in this direction, it important to him as well.

As I've said earlier i don't want to hurt Martin's business, far from it both he and Charlie are friends and i think know that without places like upnorth their business wouldn't be quite the same :D Over 120 Ducati owners visit this site everyday, prior to its formation what was there? Check out the archive and gallery photos and you can see what Ducati ownership is all about, thats not my work as this is just a facility to let you all communicate but as in most things in life there is a price, unfortunately in this case thats opinionated folk like me speaking their mind, I'll leave it to you lot to judge whether thats worthwhile paying :)
 
PaulV said:
That would be fine except that Gizmo set up this site and has put stacks of time, effort and not iconsiderable amount of funds into it.
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I realise that. It was meant as a tongue in cheek remark, hence the big grin at the end...I don't know Gizmo personally but I know he's not the type to sneak out the back door!!!
However, I have to admit that even I was starting to think "what do Ducati have to do to please this guy" That is not a personal issue, just my thoughts. It does mean that if Ducati did produce a bike that Gizmo liked, it would be some bike.

I can see all points of view and not everyone will be happy with Ducatis' direction...

I agree it would be bad for Ducati to forget that there are many potential customers who don't have the finances to stretch to new1098/streetfighter prices.
Although with the massive depreciation on the 1098 when the 1198 surfaces, who knows....:D
 
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Gizmo said:
You have some valid points Martin, ...............

............. hopefully the above explanation cover all the reasons my posts may be considered negative it without the need for me to continue this further :D
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I'm getting a bit more of a feel for where you are coming from but still have a couple of issues. I'll try and keep this shorter!!:D

My thoughts on the range slimming over the years is that it makes great business sense (as there is less models to try and develop parts for), rationalises supply and makes a far clearer message to the customer. We previously had just far too many bikes that were so similar. Customers got confused with all the variants. EG M620Dark M620 M620S and so on

But I think there are bikes that fill the hole created. The M696 and M1100 do for me. Admittedly I was sorry to see the SS and the like go (first bike I got my knee down on - a real feel good memory of mine) and would love some type of replacement but the global desire for this type of bike was dwindling sharply. R & D costs must have been cripling for such a low selling bike. I have heard chat of something but there are more important segments to fill first.

If you look at the previous quality of the product, the reliability and the sales of the product - Ducati were not financially solid, the formula wasn't working well. They required numerous bailouts and buyovers and essentially didn't get on an even keel until the investment by TPG. Only recently did they move from the red into the black - this to me is critical to this whole discussion. The business decisions have been wise thus far.

If you go the Bimota direction you suggest then you might make margin but the price (as they are) is £14K for an aircooled so to me that kinda goes against what you are aiming for.

The idea of a Streetfighter has changed. I should know - I used to build them at Specials, one of the best in the country / world. Bikes I helped build were on front covers of BSH and Streetfighters and won shows. I understand the ethos you describe but places like Specials largely died off (and I found myself on the friggin dole!!!) because people can buy better off the shelf with a warranty for much less money. The bikes you mention in BSH and so on were all worth absolute fortunes as every part was a one off.

A streetfighter now means an FZ1, CB1000R, Z1000, B King, Tuono, Speed Triple, Brutale, KTM990 - this is the worlwide competition - this is what the Streetfighter is designed to face head on and does so very well indeed. The designer may not understand the meaning of my youth, building bikes, but he certainly knows what he's doing now. I think he's captured the idea of our show winners from years ago very well.

If you would like to know very approx volume of sales for the market here goes Yam 11,500, Kawa 7000, Trium 6000, Honda 5300, Suz 3000, Buell 3000, KTM 2500, BMW 2000, Ducati 1700, MV 1200, Benelli 400 (full range).

Now I can see from looking at that exactly why Ducati would develop a new bike - it's not a miniscule consideration at all. There is huge room for improvement for Ducati. Just a small percentage of that is good stuff to a small manufacturer like Ducati.

I agree, you may not see something now you would ride - I can assure you time will tell. I know the mid range vehicles are no longer there like ST but they were such a small part of what we sold, honestly, worldwide laterly was nothing special to speak of.

I can understand the thought process, wait until the market realises the brand is now super reliable and release a new ST. Previously the thought of touring on a Ducati to some people seemed ridiculous. In future it simply won't.

I wish we could have a whole raft of new models in one go but there gonna have to be released over time - you'll see.

If you wanna put this to bed we can agree to disagree no worries:) I for one value your opinion and will be discussing this topic with Ducati over time. But I already know they are thinking about a lot of what you say! You're just gonna have to try and believe me!:)

Mart
 
You guys must have bleeding fingers with all this (abbreviated!!!) typing!:lol2:
I get a lot of what Martin says and I have a huge amount of empathy with Michael on this. (Could be an age/grumpy old man scenario.:o )
However my ideas as to what Ducati should/could produce do not, I suspect, amount to anything important but there is one major problem with what they are doing and it is the constant changing of models.
I don't mean an extra xbhp this year compared to last or different graphics/colour schemes I mean wholescale change. For a while there I couldn't keep track of the Monster range. Seemed as fast as one model hit the showroom the replacement was being hinted at in the press and then launched. S2r 800/1000. S4/S4R/S4RS etc. Never mind the 600/750/900 replacements.
Sport Classics come out to be followed the following year (I think) by the new improved model. Twin shocks etc.
What confidence does this instill in any prospective buyer?
The 999 came out and I initially didn't approve of the radical change from the 916 lineup. Now I actually have grown to like it and probably prefer it to the 1098. This took time for me to accept it.
I really feel that Ducati have to launch a bike and have the confidence to stick with it if they are REALLY passionate about the brand/bike and not panic into changing it at the first hint of less sales than predicted.
What you end up with is comments as you have here from people feeling they are being pushed a bike because the new better one is round the corner.
The Japanese tend to launch a bike and play with new "colours", different brakes, couple extra gee-gees but 3/4 years later it is still basically the same bike.
I would guess this is generating a healthy demand for cheap obsolete secondhand models but how many lost "new" sales are there?



Just counted and 23 less words than Martin......not including these ones...or those....or
 
Once again a good explanation Martin and one which follows pre-existing thinking on market, capability and where product line will fit, however try looking it another way..... :D

To be succesful commercially i'd think we all accept Ducati had to change, you are 100% correct they were losing money but that wasn't just down to product line it was probably more related to poor purchasing, poor cashflow and the problems assembling in Italy bring - the sales volume/average unit value simply wasn't enough to sustain the operating costs.

They made a decision to move into higher volume/higher margin product, once again traditional business thinking , create new product line and provided that product is ahead of the curve it will sell, if its class leading you can even charge a premium, better margin and profit, the 1098 was a good example of this unfortunately not everything you will do will be ahead of the curve and at that point it becomes more about price, customers will not pay the premium where there is , as good if not better options for less money and that is my concern on where the SF is now. Sadly they already had bikes that hit into that same area and only time will tell but I'd bet UK sales of SF do not match expectations simply because there is too much competition in that segment. With sportbikes like 1098 its slightly different as its far more race result/mag review related and Ducati have done well in both over the last 2 years, we've yet to see whether the 1198 can beat the V4 Aprilia on the track or in the mags or if that v4 becomes the magazines "must have" for 09 :(

There is an option to this, IMHO Ducati's strength is its a large niche player, its not Bimota so can be run a lot more cost effectively yet it is possible to create niche product in volume and more importantly retain existing customers. to me the best advert any brand has is satisfied customers and Ducati are getting better at qc so they have a solid base to work from. To build a brand you also need to keep new customers coming in, thats why those cheaper bikes are so vitally important, they had product which , with a little bit of work, would continue to sell, call them parts bin specials but some of them would sell in similar numbers to the SF and would have kept that influx, the way it is now with only 1 bike style in small capacity its awfully hard to see how any sport bike rider without the money can get into it, yeah you can pick a cheap 749 up but i'd bet the insurance is enough to put many younger riders off. I know you say its on the drawing board and development is limited but its been 3 years now......

The one area they really miss out on is customisation direct from the factory, there was no need to create new models and throw everything else away, almost every Ducati once sold is made individual by its owner, if they'ed thrown the old school motorbike busines model out of the window and looked to other industries they could have created a business totally different to everyone else. imagine being able to create your perfect bike simply by building it to order!!, that increases spend per bike, increases margin and reduces dev cost instead they take the Japanese on in a game with only one winner. OK I accept that is a dream but it is possible, the car industry does it as do many others, the challenge is in the logistics and JIT but get it right and you have the product to match the brand!. It takes you away from always having to be the test winner, alway having to have the most HP/lighest weight. Take the SC range as an example, they have the basis of many bikes there, wire wheel, green frame 750SS, paint that same tank fairing into black/gold, throw in gold alloy wheels and you've got a 900SS, upgrade to Ohlins fork, rear shock direct from factory, order your termi (road legal cough) already fitted no need for a can you throw away, paint red/green, swap the tail unit and you've got a Hailwood rep, new rider? drop in the 695 engine, single disc etc,its a niche in itself but there is no competition so once again you are ahead of the trend.... OK you lose on aftermarket bling sales ( or the ebay traders do) but TBH surely having a satisfied brand loyal customer is more important??

IMHO its these kind of things that would take it to another level, its doesn't need loads of new product but that will come. Some of those models would tick along for many years, they'ed be bought because the buyer was getting exactly what they wanted and had maybe saved for a few years to buy not what magazines tell them they want this month. Our spending habits will change, the days of interest free borrowing and having what you want now are getting fewer and in the future we may even have to save for that new bike :)

For me the essence of Ducati is thats its different, possibly I've become elitist but i aspired to own an SBK for over 10 years before I did get one, when i did I didn't want everyone owning the same bike as me ( not much chance with a cast swingarm 999 S bip in yellow :D :D), if i did i'd go buy a blade or r1 and yes, i value that exclusivity because I find that I get on with fellow owners who think like i do, if Ducati move more mainstream and chase market segments you lose that exclusivity, if they produce quirky , different ( but good) bikes customers will come to them, if they create trends and lead into new areas then they grow, but thats what good design linked to manufacturing capability is all about to me, it moves the boundaries and expectation .....

Bob asked what would make me happy, its all of that above, Ducati keeping the exclusivity, letting me choose the way I'd want a new bike, making it special and not going head to head with Japan, DD16RR owners know what that is like, but I believe there is an option which is commercially viable in a more mass market and one which would prevent me and others going through that door and if any motorbike brand can do it, its Ducati......

Apologies folks, its an interest discussion/argument for me and says quite a bit about why owning a Ducati is more than just about the bike, i can't imagine you get the UK's top dealer and a forum creator discusing this kind of stuff on many Honda forums, all we need is Pierre Terblanche to appear and see what his vision was :D now that would be a coup, anyone got his email :)
 
Is there a webspace limit here?:lol2:

Most of what Michael says but we NEED a single as well as an alternative. PLEASE!!
 
I would like to say I have enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread. I got home from work @ 6 and I'm not long finished!!!!!:lol2: :lol2:

I appreciate the passion that everyone has on this subject..... you just don't get that with Honda!!!! :D

I'm off to try and stop my bleeding eyes!!!
 
bobsyeruncle said:
Why?...
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Because it could be used in another range of bikes currently missing from the line?? I've been looking for a new bike this week, 2 options 1 a 125kg 70 bhp v twin the other a 115kg 60 bhp single, I don't need or want bike weight, don't need crazy HP prepared to accept a highly tuned race engine which both those are, they are both italian but neither is a Ducati so maybe Ducati are missing out?
 
bobsyeruncle said:
Why?...
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Well.........how about entry level bike (assuming it's not £12k!).
60/70 horse in 120/130kg package would be a hoot for real world riding in same way your RGV/RS250 is/was.
Have naked or faired versions.
Have "classic" range.
Possible one make race series.
Ducati made their name with singles. Ducati history stretches back a lot further than anything Japanese so why not "use" it?
Something "different" to what is on offer elsewhere.
Not everyone wants a 200mph sportsbike.
Smaller engine may be seen as "Greener" alternative and appeal to some.
Lower running costs.
 
239desmo said:
Well.........how about entry level bike (assuming it's not £12k!).
60/70 horse in 120/130kg package would be a hoot for real world riding in same way your RGV/RS250 is/was.
Have naked or faired versions.
Have "classic" range.
Possible one make race series.
Ducati made their name with singles. Ducati history stretches back a lot further than anything Japanese so why not "use" it?
Something "different" to what is on offer elsewhere.
Not everyone wants a 200mph sportsbike.
Smaller engine may be seen as "Greener" alternative and appeal to some.
Lower running costs.
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Gizmo said:
Because it could be used in another range of bikes currently missing from the line?? I've been looking for a new bike this week, 2 options 1 a 125kg 70 bhp v twin the other a 115kg 60 bhp single, I don't need or want bike weight, don't need crazy HP prepared to accept a highly tuned race engine which both those are, they are both italian but neither is a Ducati so maybe Ducati are missing out?
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Some valid points there...
 
Well that's me lost, I read and reread the posts on this thread yesterday, slept on it before posting and s*d me, in the way I enjoy about DUN, it's veered off on something slightly different/but the same/just as valid!!

So:
Gizmo - I agree with his sentiments, as always honest good sense from the heart. If as he seemed to infer we lose his involvement in this the great site he created it will be our loss.

Ducati - I thought of this as an innovative, aspirational brand with low volume and high prices. The move to higher volume, higher margin is for me coming with conformist looks less emphasis on engineering content and TBH for me a 'cheapening down'.

Dealers - Ducati Leeds are a fantastic dealer for me. I like going there, John and Jane are tops. It's that dealer support and commitment that makes owning a Ducati a given for me. Like Mad Dash with Ducati Glasgow, I'd buy with the range they sold.

Range - I totally enjoy owning my 749, it's great for me: style, engineering content, the lot. I couldn't do justice to a 1098 and don't aspire to more power. Enough is sufficient. Can't see an 1198 or 2011's 1298. or 2013's 1398 (you get my drift?) as anything other than too much more too much...
Now a high end single, now you're talking.....:D :D :D
 
Now a high end single, now you're talking.....
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a Ducati thumper, that would be interesting....

I love my 996 more than any other bike I've owned but there will come a day when the body won't take anymore......maybe then I will buy a 5 year old streetfighter for £5k...
 
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