Another 900 GTS story. The Black Pig

Just a quick update to an earlier post, i tried fitting a 88mm Smiths magnetic bezel today to a veglia and its not really going to work, the Veglia case rim is about 2mm smaller than the Smiths so the bezel is slack which makes a load of problems when you try to roll the back over.
 
Thanks Paddy. Actually I polished up the bezels on my Veglias and they are not too bad. One has a couple of dents but the chrome is quite decent. I'm off to the Stafford show tomorrow so I'll see if there is anything on sale.
 
A bit more progress….

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Forks rebuilt and cleaned. Miraculously they have zero corrosion and and are straight. The fork top nuts have taken a hell of a beating, but I’ve got some new ones on the way from Ian Gowanloch. Nice new headraces bought from Marksman Industrial for a fraction of the Ducati Specialist prices.

The swingarm was a real steal. Scroll back a few pages and I found my existing swingarm had the “benefit” of adjustable suspension – on account of having extra holes drilled in the mounting brackets and the proper holes ground away. The swingarm bushes were also shot. I managed to buy a newly powder coated swingarm from ebay in perfect condition for £20…and the bushes are a lovely snug fit on the pin….and the shims to take up the lateral play fitted perfectly. What a result! It could have been much different…

I’ll continue to tack on bits and bobs at my leisure. Unfortunately it’s much slower on the engine front. I still don’t have the crankcases on the spare engine split due to the impossibility of removing the primary drive gear and flywheel. I’m very frustrated at progress on this as it’s been with Cotswold Engine Reconditioners for almost a month and he’s only just got around to looking at it. He drilled 3 additional holes in the flywheel (I don’t need this) but even with a big hydraulic puller, vibration and heat – it won’t shift.
Next plan is to cut through the primary gear to release it. I really wanted to use these crankcases if possible as they are the originals. If not, we’ll have to go ahead with the the other set.
I’m hoping my mate Pat’s Dad Andy will take on the job of rebuilding the engine. He’s taken on every difficult engineering task I’ve failed with and found a perfect solution every time. Otherwise it’s over to Ducati specialist Tim Hyett.

I keep looking at the crank, grabbing the rods and imagining there’s some play. I don’t think there is, but I called Godden Engineering and they quoted ca £300 for a new bearing and pin. Not sure what to do with it. On one hand, why spend additional funds to replace a usable big end on a bike that’ll do 1000 miles per year. On the other hand…
 
Stormin progress! It's really coming along.

WRT Godden, I have been very pleased with the way they treated me and their work; Although I suppose that's a bit early to say ;).
 
I have never had a flywheel stick like that ! Get a big puller on it wind it up as tight as it will go and sock it with a club hammer, wind it up a bit more and sock it again...keep going it will come off with a bang.
Cranks are always a gamble. Chances are your will be fine i have three of four and all feel ok. The real giveaway is side float. there should be some but you should also be able to see if the side thrust washers are worked. Thats usually a good indication of how hard the crank has worn. Also you could clean out the sludge traps making sure not to push the sludge back in to the crank. If the sludge traps are chocka then there is a good chance the bearings might have suffered. An option is to get the crank pressed apart cleaned checked and re assembled. OK so its a £100 but if all is well you have peace of mind and if all is not well at least you found out and saved another engine rebuild.
I will look up someone who will do this for you tomorrow as i have mislaid his details at the moment.
Cheers
Paddy
 
I have to agree with Paddy about the crank as not only do the thrust washers wear but the side face of the rods is a sacrificial element in the process. Side-play may be a good thing as they have found better results with a larger than standard amount but not if it is in the rods, rather than the bearings. You really only know by taking it apart. Godden use the same size of bearing in their own motors so are all set-up to make hardened inserts to reclaim rods rather than replace them. Ask whoever takes your crank apart to measure the width before they start, since a little over on the size when pressing back together can make the assembly too fat to fit in the cases, even without shims. Vacant used a special bearing from Lacey in his rods, if I recall.
 
MartinW said:
Snip... Godden use the same size of bearing in their own motors so are all set-up to make hardened inserts to reclaim rods rather than replace them. Ask whoever takes your crank apart to measure the width before they start, since a little over on the size when pressing back together can make the assembly too fat to fit in the cases, even without shims. Vacant used a special bearing from Lacey in his rods, if I recall.
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I think Godden have run out of their own bearings and Lacey make a modern replacement to the same specifications as the original. My bottom end is exactly as Martin says - The original rods have new inserts in which the Lacey bearings run on a new Godden pin; There is enough metal to do this. Even if you needed new rods, Goddens are a work of art...
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These are in my GTS. The Godden rods are the self same they use in their own 1,000cc Speedway engine, which chucks out a good deal more power than the bevel engine at higher revs.
 
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I have a good pair of original rods listed on my site :-) out of interest how much do they charge to sleeve a knackered set of rods ?
I think the point is this is a 860 that might do a 1000 miles a year, its very easy to get carried away with cranks when a good original one which has been looked after might go on for 60-80k miles....or more.
 
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As far as I can remember the bill was ~£700, made up of:-
  • disassembly, cleaning, inspection
  • a new pin
  • 2 x Lacey bearings
  • sleeving the con rods
  • new sludge trap screws
  • assembly, balancing.
I think the government had (another) 20% drink out of my already taxed income as well.
 
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ducatipaddy said:
Thats actually not bad, i mean its a silly amount but its competitive with replacing the rods bearings and pin.
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I agree. Whilst it was a stinker of a bill, I was able to discuss the bottom end with Gary; I put forward one of my SS rod bottom ends I had lying around in a box to start with, and Gary discovered the sleeves had been drilled off centre and one rod was effectively 1mm longer than the other! Those rods went in the bin and I submitted my second SS set which he inspected and refurbished.

I can honestly say the service was very very good. I have no reason to doubt the quality of installation and installed components is anything but top drawer, time will tell. Boy, did I like your remark about bottom ends lasting > 60,000 miles! That would be almost like owning a Ducati with Guzzi engine reliability ;)

That is what I have been trying to achieve.
 
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I remember years ago when i was working with Mdina we used to get guys turn up looking for parts on 860's and Darmahs with 50-100k miles on those things. they were the type of guys who would now ride Guzzis, three sets of waterproofs, woolly hats under their helmets, camping out most weekends at bike meets and 24/7 365 days a year bikers. the sort of guys that set off 50 miles ago with a roll up clenched between their teeth and it was still there when they arrived, soggy and brown but they would still light it when they got off. Not something people do on Ducatis now....lol the bikes were held together with string but they knew if they changed the oil they would go on and on. I remember one guy with a Darmah, he had a piece of string for a throttle cable with a loop in the end that he put his thumb through and to accelerate he just lifted his thumb on the bars....
Nearly all the wear on these dukes is on start up and when running without filters IMHO
 
That's a very interesting point about wear on start-up, maybe after the bike has been sitting a while? In the US a lot of racers use an Accusump (http://www.accusump.com) which holds an amount of oil under pressure that builds whilst the engine is running. If the low oil pressure switch trips, or on start-up it releases the oil into the system. Fitting something like that squirting into the crank end might be a challenge worthy of the Vacant treatment... I can just see a frame tube used as a reservoir...
BTW I reckon Eelco's Darmah, having done 40k miles, was one of those you saw at Mdina, thinking about the hooked 36 tooth sprocket, Jota bars and the top-box brackets and faint smell of Capstan Full Strength
 
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Neat idea!

I have noticed that whenever I replace the oil filter, the oil filter cup is nearly empty. It doesn't matter when I am changing the oil as I prime the system before I start it by turning the engine over until it squirts out of the hole adjacent to crankshaft, ignition side.

It does matter when I start the bike from cold and it does its 'Oh! There is no crowd about so I'll start first kick' trick. It *must* take a few seconds for the oil to reach all those cold whirling bits of metal.
 
Cranks are always a gamble. Chances are your will be fine i have three of four and all feel ok. The real giveaway is side float. there should be some but you should also be able to see if the side thrust washers are worked. Thats usually a good indication of how hard the crank has worn. Also you could clean out the sludge traps making sure not to push the sludge back in to the crank. If the sludge traps are chocka then there is a good chance the bearings might have suffered
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I seem to have about 0.3mm lateral play by pushing a feeler gauge between the rods. Trouble is the more I fiddle about with the the more play there seems to be (ooh err madam!) The washers look OK. Paddy - I might get you to cast your eye over it when I pick up the exhausts.

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I took the hubs into CWC in Coleshill today. I thought about getting the Radaelli rims rechromed as it's not possible to get the same profile chromed steel rim any longer. However the rims were so grotty they went to the rag and bone man. I decided to get the Borrani type alloy rims. Not original but that was what everybody changed to when the Italian chrome started peeling on the Radaellis. With the blasted and polished rims I reckon they'll look the business.

Tyres
I took off a front 100/90 x 18 and back 110/90 x 18. I'm assuming they are correct but I thought I'd better check?
From what I've read Avon AV26 Roadriders seem to be the recommended tyre - at least being a modern compound. Any views on this?

Electronic Ignition
The week after next I've got a trip round a few places in north Germany. As it happens I almost pass the door of both Sachse and Silent Hektik.
So - which one's it to be? I think they are the only 2 options currently available?
 
Vacant will know which ignition is best as he is a better researcher than 'Which'. Looking at both the ones you mention I think that the Sachse has a neater pick-up system which looks more hot-oil resistant, but doesn't come with coils like the silent hektik. Let us know which you choose and I might ask you to buy two and maybe get a deal (I feel all Yorkshire now) since I tested the resistance on all my components today and they are all in spec but I still only have a spark on the back cylinder. Since all the parts look well old I might just bite the bullet.
 
Vacant Possession said:
. It *must* take a few seconds for the oil to reach all those cold whirling bits of metal.
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Yes but that's true of any engine. Oils are designed for modern engines that have plain bearings. A super thin oil film is all there is to keep metal from metal in a bearing shell but the oil film takes a massive loading before it breaks down so is fine on cold starts and the second or two before oil pressure is reached. Bevel dukes run mostly ball race bearings, they don't need the oil pressure of a plain bearing and can start wet from a previous run without any problems. For example you could probably start a 900 without any oil in for 30 seconds and get away with it where as a modern engine would probably kill its bearings in less than that. Ball races are a hell of a lot more forgiving than plain bearings. When you look in a bevel gazer at the pints of oil swirling about remember most of that oil is doing nothing, it’s only the thin film on parts that is working. What the volume is doing is cooling and just as importantly transferring heat so an engine heats up more evenly. Oil is a great coolant since by its nature is pumped to the very areas where heat would be created ie: areas of friction.
The only real area of wear i come across on a bevel engine is back pot cams and front pot bores. Cams often wear and people say well it takes time for oil pressure to build up to the highest point of an engine. This is true but also i find restrictions in the oil feed through the cam and on to the lobes is as much at fault. The oil travels up the barrel to the head, through the cam and into the bevel area, the take off for the feed to the cam lobes is very small and any blockage will send the oil straight past it.. Front cylinders will weather this much better as they get a good splash feed . If you think about it the bevel tube is your drain back, on the back pot the bevel tube is at the lowest point of the head., on the front pot its half way up the head so you have a good reservoir of oil that builds up before it reaches the level of the bevel tube. Front bores wear on the lower surface of the bore where fuel sits and washes the bore. Never.....tickle a carb if you are not going to start it !!! never leave the fuel taps on when you put the bike away.
It’s true of any engine that most wear is on starting. One of the reasons a London bus will do a million miles is they start in the morning then run all day at their most efficient temp, same with London taxis, usually one cold to hot cycle a day... It’s not just about oil circulation though its about metal expansion and tolerances as engines heat up, you have alloy pistons expanding faster than cast iron bores, steel valves heating up much quicker than their bronze guides, oil viscosity varies as oil in the sump is stone cold and oil traveling to the head is next to very hot bores and so on. Its only once the engine reaches operating temp it all settles down…and that is where your London bus spends most of its working life, up to temp.
Change your oil and filter as often as you like. In old engines like a bevel duke tolerances are slacker fuel will get past the rings and pollute your oil. Oil will overheat in an air cooled engine at some point and that produces carbons that are abrasive ( and turn your oil black) also don’t forget in wet clutch engines the oil is broken down by the action of the clutch and the heat and this also pollutes the oil.
Thing is these are old engines and performance engines at that. They are not Nissan Micra engines designed to do 20-40k miles between changes. Maintain them as the manufacturer intended and not as if they are a modern car and they will be fine. Don’t start it up to show a mate how it starts first kick, then later to show another the oil fizzing round the bevel gazer, then again later to show someone that faint tick you can here. Food for thought…During the war aircraft engine life was measured in hours run and starting cycles !!.
One last point on longevity …air filters, yea we know that a good shinny pair of bell mouths look the part but we also know unfiltered air is just full of sand and dust, all of which is like pouring rubbing compound into the bores. Think 10k miles on a bore without filters and 50k miles on one with.
I'm even starting to bore myself now..:)
 
Sad news about Volker and more food for thought from Paddy. I suppose the K&Ns will have to go back on. I have always wondered about those big aero engines scrambled from cold. I guess that they had to start them up regularly through a day. That noise must have been a huge stress raiser for the men waiting to fly and likely die. Their adrenal glands must have been worn out if they survived long enough. No wonder that folklore says they were drunk every night.
 
Thanks for the comprehensive reply! All very interesting, particularly the bit about restrictions in the oil supplies to the heads as my engine & Martin's *need* restrictors in the heads to deliver the correct amount to the big ends. Hopefully the full filtering will make sure the restrictors do not get blocked.
ducatipaddy said:
Snip... Oils are designed for modern engines that have plain bearings. Snip...
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Usually true however there are many modern oils out there designed with roller bearing engines, wet clutches & gears specifically in mind.

Snip... Food for thought…During the war aircraft engine life was measured in hours run and starting cycles !!.
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They still are; However the 3,000 hour service life of a Bristol Hercules whilst impressive pales beside a modern jet engine where 30,000 hours is only part way into its service life. Short haul & long haul making quite a difference to the hours/cycle ratio. Modern lubricants, filtering systems and regular documented maintenance including borescope analyses play a part, as do improved materials and manufacturing processes.

One last point on longevity …air filters, yea we know that a good shinny pair of bell mouths look the part but we also know unfiltered air is just full of sand and dust, all of which is like pouring rubbing compound into the bores. Think 10k miles on a bore without filters and 50k miles on one with.
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I am using these; They don't seem to be much more than more tightly woven steel mesh. I presume they can be cleaned in petrol but they don't come with instructions. I am hoping they are a lot better than nothing. What do you think?
 
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Doesn't matter which Bevel forum you go on....eventually the topic of oil gets an airing!
Paddy and VP - I'm sure every word you say is correct, but why don't you just tell me what to put in the thing? I've seen threads degenerate into a slanging match over straight vs multigrade, synthetic vs mineral etc and I'm totally confused.
In my 250 I'm using old fashioned 20/50 and change every 500 miles. Am I right or wrong?

Ignition
Mikesps - thanks for the head's up on this unfortunate story. On some links the Sachse Online shop is there, but on others it has a message regarding bereavement. Probably focusses my mind onto the Silent Hektik system. Martin - I'll contact them and see what they offer.

Tyres Come on guys - everyone has an opinion on tyres!
 
ducatipaddy said:
but we also know unfiltered air is just full of sand and dust, all of which is like pouring rubbing compound into the bores.
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spoilsport!! :p will it be alright if i only ride mine in the wet so that any dust is damped down ;)


ref the silent hektik.. their kit seems to get good reviews amongst Guzzi bods - the bloke that I use for stuff fits the Guzzi kits... different set up of course but he's a good bloke and I expect he'll be happy to talk about their kit in general..
Nigel at NBS http://www.motorcycleservicing.co.uk/

The ignitech progrmable ignitors seems to have a good rep amongst modern triumph owners, seem to be helpful with good support..

Tyres... well I always used to reccomend Avon Roadriders, but not so sure if they havent changed recently as the front on my le mans doesnt feel as stable, also there are a few people who have experienced splits appearing in the bottom of the treads :eek: have fitted BT45's to the Dramah - I expect to be able to report back on them next year!!! :lol2:
 
VP - I've just been doing some revision on one of your epic threads...

Bought these from openeo - free postage too at £144!
Avon AM26 Roadrider 100/90-18 56 V Front/Rear TL Quantity: 1 x 69 GBP
Avon AM26 Roadrider 120/90-18 65 V Rear TL Quantity: 1 x 76 GBP
I hope they are up to the hype!
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So do you recommend the Avons? I took off a 110/90 from the back wheel, but is this correct or should it be 120/90?
 
I bought Silent Hektik. Reasons? 7 Euro cheaper.

It all sounded very good and I am afraid I went for the marketing :o

It all looked good too when it arrived. As long as it goes as well as it looks, I'll be a happy bunny.
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And fitted...
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Oil wise, both Martin & my bevels are more like an S2 or Mille in the oil filter department so can use modern oils, carefully avoiding those with wet clutch unfriendly additives.

I am a fan of AMSOil 20W-50, AMSOil 10W-40 and AMSOil 10W-30.


Without doubt Paddy knows more than me about what keeps a standard bevel in one piece - I have spent the past 25 years striving to s2ise my bevels as whenever I didn't they went bang, like recently.
 
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Errr... you've caught me out there ;)

Here they are, not yet attached to the 900GTS :o
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I wanted to keep the tyre sizes standard so I think I looked them up, probably in a Falloon tome or the user manual.
 
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