The definitive Lithium Battery Thread

Noobie said:
There is an awful lot of data here but can someone keep it simple. What are the benefits of a lithium battery over a standard battery. If it's just weight, wouldn't a good shit cure that ?
Click to expand...

For me it was the CCA my battery provided after my 1098R was a bugger to start, often flooding when the battery didn't have enough oooph to turn the starter and fire the plugs. Since fitting an uprated LiPo it's never failed.

My Pani R came with one as standard.
 
Someone is missing a trick.
A decent generator set with a 3 in 1 duplication / capacity. .. 3 managed charge outputs.
Three light weight distributed batteries.
One battery for the starter motor, one for the fuel injectors and one for spark/other electronics.
Each to have the same CCA of the OEM.

A Ducati that always starts.....
 
Noobie said:
There is an awful lot of data here but can someone keep it simple. What are the benefits of a lithium battery over a standard battery. If it's just weight, wouldn't a good shit cure that ?
Click to expand...
A common error is that Lithium (all types) is inferior or superior to lead acid a low temperatures.
Neither battery has a good CCA or terminal voltage at low temperatures and both offer superior performance at high temperatures.
A lead acid battery can take a charge better at low temperature and there is a strange barrier / self heating effect on lithium at low temperature or excessive time with no or near zero draw. You need to draw a little current for a short time to wake it up.... a quirk if you like.

The charge and discharge characteristics of either technology are quite different.
The future is Lithium without a doubt.
Trying to shoe this into an older circuit is problematic.
 
AirCon said:
Someone is missing a trick.
A decent generator set with a 3 in 1 duplication / capacity. .. 3 managed charge outputs.
Three light weight distributed batteries.
One battery for the starter motor, one for the fuel injectors and one for spark/other electronics.
Each to have the same CCA of the OEM.

A Ducati that always starts.....
Click to expand...
I guess weight and placement, ie fitting them into what is already a very compact package on a bike, precludes this from happening 🤔
 
AirCon said:
The charge and discharge characteristics of either technology are quite different.
The future is Lithium without a doubt.
Trying to shoe this into an older circuit is problematic.
Click to expand...
but still no-one has managed to answer the question as to what’s different about r/rs for lithium batteries.

The Pani-R has lithium as standard, what does it use as the r/r?

The 2021 BMW GS has an option of a lightweight battery ie lithium (I know, it’s a bit perverse, paying £300 odd to save 3kg on a 250kg bike), and I doubt they are fitting a different r/r from the regular one as well as the lithium battery.

Electrexworld recommend that even their latest mosfet r/rs aren’t used with Lithium batteries.

If one wants to safely fit lithium what r/r should one use?
 
West Cork Paul said:
but still no-one has managed to answer the question as to what’s different about r/rs for lithium batteries.

The Pani-R has lithium as standard, what does it use as the r/r?

The 2021 BMW GS has an option of a lightweight battery ie lithium (I know, it’s a bit perverse, paying £300 odd to save 3kg on a 250kg bike), and I doubt they are fitting a different r/r from the regular one as well as the lithium battery.

Electrexworld recommend that even their latest mosfet r/rs aren’t used with Lithium batteries.

If one wants to safely fit lithium what r/r should one use?
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul for starting yet another really interesting thread , which I've been following closely ..... (y)

It's refreshing to read the various opinions of members , without it degenerating into the sort of " flame war "
that some of us may have seen on other forums ...... :rolleyes:

My personal opinion hasn't changed much , which is (a) that Lithium is surely the way things will go in the future , and
(b) why on Earth would a person "wedge" a Lithium based system into a bike that was never designed to take one ?
..... and then take on the additional hassle and expense of locating and installing a compatible rectifier / regulator ?

It just makes no sense to me at all ,
and I reckon that Aircon has hit the nail on the head , in three short sentences ...

AirCon said:
The charge and discharge characteristics of either technology are quite different.
The future is Lithium without a doubt.
Trying to shoe this into an older circuit is problematic.
Click to expand...
 
Duke of Prunes said:
Thanks Paul for starting yet another really interesting thread , which I've been following closely ..... (y)

It's refreshing to read the various opinions of members , without it degenerating into the sort of " flame war "
that some of us may have seen on other forums ...... :rolleyes:

My personal opinion hasn't changed much , which is (a) that Lithium is surely the way things will go in the future , and
(b) why on Earth would a person "wedge" a Lithium based system into a bike that was never designed to take one ?
..... and then take on the additional hassle and expense of locating and installing a compatible rectifier / regulator ?

It just makes no sense to me at all ,
and I reckon that Aircon has hit the nail on the head , in three short sentences ...
Click to expand...
Lots of grey areas exist and Robarano found a solution to poor starting by going lithium - there would also be other valid solutions. Just because something is originally designed in a certain way doesn't mean it is the best solution but I would agree that going litbium on a system that is considered less than perfectly reliable should involve a lot of thought. The weight advantage is snake oil to us mere mortals 🤣
 
Barry Hell said:
Lots of grey areas exist and Robarano found a solution to poor starting by going lithium - there would also be other valid solutions. Just because something is originally designed in a certain way doesn't mean it is the best solution but I would agree that going litbium on a system that is considered less than perfectly reliable should involve a lot of thought. The weight advantage is snake oil to us mere mortals 🤣
Click to expand...

The 1098R has a 14a battery as standard over the 12a battery of the non 'R' bike. When I was having issues, I thought this must be the case for a reason so decided to give it an upgrade to an 18a battery. To fit in the battery box LiPo was the only option. I then upgraded the reg/rec after reading up about some issues.

Nothing more technical than that really. 🤷‍♂️
 
West Cork Paul said:
but still no-one has managed to answer the question as to what’s different about r/rs for lithium batteries.

The Pani-R has lithium as standard, what does it use as the r/r?

The 2021 BMW GS has an option of a lightweight battery ie lithium (I know, it’s a bit perverse, paying £300 odd to save 3kg on a 250kg bike), and I doubt they are fitting a different r/r from the regular one as well as the lithium battery.

Electrexworld recommend that even their latest mosfet r/rs aren’t used with Lithium batteries.

If one wants to safely fit lithium what r/r should one use?
Click to expand...
www.motoelectrical.co.uk

Lithium-Ion Batteries Mosfet Voltage Reg

Lithium-Ion Batteries Mosfet Voltage Reg. Top quality aftermarket parts from Moto-electrical. Delivered to you.
www.motoelectrical.co.uk www.motoelectrical.co.uk
 
I read something recently that recommended fetching a Lithium battery indoors if the bike was going to be left
unused in places that had long cold winters .

Maybe it was a link in this thread ?

Any thoughts on that one ?
 
Duke of Prunes said:
I read something recently that recommended fetching a Lithium battery indoors if the bike was going to be left
unused in places that had long cold winters .

Maybe it was a link in this thread ?

Any thoughts on that one ?
Click to expand...
See post #073 :unsure:
 
Duke of Prunes said:
I read something recently that recommended fetching a Lithium battery indoors if the bike was going to be left
unused in places that had long cold winters .

Maybe it was a link in this thread ?

Any thoughts on that one ?
Click to expand...
I've never bothered bringing any batteries indoors, including the Lithium one. I usually get 5 or 6 years out of a lead acid, I don't know how long the lithium will last.
 
WAYNE said:
www.motoelectrical.co.uk

Lithium-Ion Batteries Mosfet Voltage Reg

Lithium-Ion Batteries Mosfet Voltage Reg. Top quality aftermarket parts from Moto-electrical. Delivered to you.
www.motoelectrical.co.uk www.motoelectrical.co.uk
Click to expand...
I saw one similar advertised in the US a few years ago - the Alternator Kit I want for my KR project comes from Electrex World and comes complete with one of their Regulator Rectifiers - I don't know if to use it due to their stance and get something like this.
I see they say you can't use it with a regular battery, what might that tell us Mr @AirCon and @Derek :unsure:
 
Exige said:
I saw one similar advertised in the US a few years ago - the Alternator Kit I want for my KR project comes from Electrex World and comes complete with one of their Regulator Rectifiers - I don't know if to use it due to their stance and get something like this.
I see they say you can't use it with a regular battery, what might that tell us Mr @AirCon and @Derek :unsure:
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure although I suspect that regulated output voltage of 14.1V might be something to do with it. The optimum voltage for lead-acid in 'float' mode (i.e. keep it fully charged) is 13.8V but up to 14.4V is ok to recharge the battery as long as it settles to 13.8V once full charge is reached.
 
I've not seen any data on self discharge on Lithium rechargeable batteries.
On Non-rechargeable it is near zero, hence super long life standby situations.

Lead acid is circa 3% or more.

Lead acid batteries like charging on dirty DC.... DC with an wiggly wave on top.... helps break up the hydrogen bubbles forming on the plates during a charge.
Not sure what Lithium likes.... probably not dirty DC.
 
Last edited:
My panigale had lithium on it and as @Derek said it held its charge incredibly well.
when it did need a bit of charge I just stuck the optimate 3 on at it performed fine.

as for the poor starting on standard bikes my 848 was a shit to start so I had a car battery with a lead and the same connector as the optimate just wanged em together and once fired for the day she’d be right.
 
Duke of Prunes said:
Thanks Paul for starting yet another really interesting thread , which I've been following closely ..... (y)

It's refreshing to read the various opinions of members , without it degenerating into the sort of " flame war "
that some of us may have seen on other forums ...... :rolleyes:

My personal opinion hasn't changed much , which is (a) that Lithium is surely the way things will go in the future , and
(b) why on Earth would a person "wedge" a Lithium based system into a bike that was never designed to take one ?
..... and then take on the additional hassle and expense of locating and installing a compatible rectifier / regulator ?

It just makes no sense to me at all ,
and I reckon that Aircon has hit the nail on the head , in three short sentences ...
Click to expand...
And I agree that this is an interesting subject with people sharing their knowledge instead of berating others for their lack of knowledge on the subject.
Well done 👍
 
AirCon said:
I've not seen any data on self discharge on Lithium rechargeable batteries.
On Non-rechargeable it is near zero, hence super long life standby situations.

Lead acid is circa 3% or more.

Lead acid batteries link charging on dirty DC.... DC with an wiggly wave on top.... helps break up the hydrogen bubbles forming on the plates during a charge.
Not sure what Lithium likes.... probably not dirty DC.
Click to expand...
According to WikipediaScreenshot 2021-06-15 at 13.36.52.webp
 
Derek said:
I'm not entirely sure although I suspect that regulated output voltage of 14.1V might be something to do with it. The optimum voltage for lead-acid in 'float' mode (i.e. keep it fully charged) is 13.8V but up to 14.4V is ok to recharge the battery as long as it settles to 13.8V once full charge is reached.
Click to expand...

Yes indeedy , same here .
My cheapo so-called smart charger always goes to 13.8 V after it has done with the bulk charging , and it stays there .

PS - I note that in the destructions it clearly states ..... " Not suitable for Lithium batteries "

----------------------------------------
 
Update on Lithium batteries in Vans.


I work for a local body shop that makes specialised vans / lorries for the airport and associated industries.

A recent "shock" has been received by one user as his all electric vans are now £3000 each to insure compared to the Diesel Sprinter (circa £400 each).
So not only does he have the initial +£52,000 to lay out (normally circa £35K), he needs at least three times the vans, as they can only run for 4 hours before a recharge and the weight carried is 775Kg instead of 1800Kg. As you can imagine he's not a happy bunny. He has had the insurance issue fully investigated.
"if the air bags deploy in an accident this indicates that the lithium battery has also been shocked by the impact. The vehicle will require a completely new battery pack and as such this would render the vehicle a write off". Note many of these vehicles may have had £15K of modifications.

It would be reasonable to assume that this may also apply to other battery vehicles..... perhaps a step backwards in renewable tech?
 
AirCon said:
Update on Lithium batteries in Vans.


I work for a local body shop that makes specialised vans / lorries for the airport and associated industries.

A recent "shock" has been received by one user as his all electric vans are now £3000 each to insure compared to the Diesel Sprinter (circa £400 each).
So not only does he have the initial +£52,000 to lay out (normally circa £35K), he needs at least three times the vans, as they can only run for 4 hours before a recharge and the weight carried is 775Kg instead of 1800Kg. As you can imagine he's not a happy bunny. He has had the insurance issue fully investigated.
"if the air bags deploy in an accident this indicates that the lithium battery has also been shocked by the impact. The vehicle will require a completely new battery pack and as such this would render the vehicle a write off". Note many of these vehicles may have had £15K of modifications.

It would be reasonable to assume that this may also apply to other battery vehicles..... perhaps a step backwards in renewable tech?
Click to expand...
Pay for covid bollocks once we all have to insure shit electric cars 🤔
 
AirCon said:
Update on Lithium batteries in Vans.


I work for a local body shop that makes specialised vans / lorries for the airport and associated industries.

A recent "shock" has been received by one user as his all electric vans are now £3000 each to insure compared to the Diesel Sprinter (circa £400 each).
So not only does he have the initial +£52,000 to lay out (normally circa £35K), he needs at least three times the vans, as they can only run for 4 hours before a recharge and the weight carried is 775Kg instead of 1800Kg. As you can imagine he's not a happy bunny. He has had the insurance issue fully investigated.
"if the air bags deploy in an accident this indicates that the lithium battery has also been shocked by the impact. The vehicle will require a completely new battery pack and as such this would render the vehicle a write off". Note many of these vehicles may have had £15K of modifications.

It would be reasonable to assume that this may also apply to other battery vehicles..... perhaps a step backwards in renewable tech?
Click to expand...

That makes my £200 investment in a Shorai for El Diablo, look good value. :cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom