The definitive Lithium Battery Thread

Exige

Elite Member
Subscriber
These links might be useful




Who wrote that middle link, a journalist working for a web site that gets paid for promoting Lithium batteries 🤷‍♂️ this just clouds the issue more as against this commercial judgement we have Ferret (the best known UK bike electrical specialist) and the biggest UK manufacturer of Regulator Rectifiers saying the exact opposite :unsure:

Quote from the link:
We earn commissions from purchases you make using the retail links in our product reviews and other articles.

In fact someone quoted some of that article on FB the other day and I directed them to this thread to join in - it appears they decided no to 👀

A big issue even if this were true is the amount of cheaply made Lithium Batteries available on the market, and some of the expensive ones are cheaply made, just well marketed.
 

Dirty Leeds

Elite Member
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2 and I know who owns them 👀
There’s a double bed in that room so going to dismantle it and stand it up so will have plenty of room

the plan is to get the short gear lever, bar risers, high front fender, pull strap, and rear sprocket off the red one and put on the white one so with the electric start will be a nicely specced bike but I confess to liking the red one too, If you see the gear lever is long on the white one that’s how trials bikes have them but I’m more used to the type on the red one it’s an s3 conversion @£170 so not cheap I think with the bits off I might get my money back for the red one possibly which would be nice as possible £400 in bits to come off, when the red one goes I’ll get a beta alp 200 to go with white one

but you know what happens to plans 😂

way I see it is people buy pictures and sculptures and all sorts of shite to look at but I like looking at motorbikes in my house 😂
95BFC581-C311-485C-BC80-86470BF9A9D3.jpeg
 

West Cork Paul

Elite Member
Subscriber
Who wrote that middle link, a journalist working for a web site that gets paid for promoting Lithium batteries 🤷‍♂️ this just clouds the issue more as against this commercial judgement we have Ferret (the best known UK bike electrical specialist) and the biggest UK manufacturer of Regulator Rectifiers saying the exact opposite :unsure:

Quote from the link:
We earn commissions from purchases you make using the retail links in our product reviews and other articles.
That’s part of the issue I want to overcome, to get the facts and cut through any bias. The other 2 articles are written by manufacturers/vendors of lithium batteries.

I’ve nothing against lithium batteries, I can see the benefits of them, but it would be nice to get all the facts out so people can make a fully informed decision.
In fact someone quoted some of that article on FB the other day and I directed them to this thread to join in - it appears they decided no to 👀
FB unfortunately is where a lot of people get their info and then if that info is found to be incorrect you can never find the thread to correct it or go ‘oye, that was duff info you gave’ . In fact it was comments on FB made me start this thread in an attempt to get all the facts out and bust any myths.
A big issue even if this were true is the amount of cheaply made Lithium Batteries available on the market, and some of the expensive ones are cheaply made, just well marketed.
This is one of the things we need to get to the bottom of. Are there still cheaply made ones without BMSs? Are the cells in more expensive ones just cheap poor quality ones in a fancy package? How can we identify these things?
 

Exige

Elite Member
Subscriber
That’s part of the issue I want to overcome, to get the facts and cut through any bias. The other 2 articles are written by manufacturers/vendors of lithium batteries.

I’ve nothing against lithium batteries, I can see the benefits of them, but it would be nice to get all the facts out so people can make a fully informed decision.

FB unfortunately is where a lot of people get their info and then if that info is found to be incorrect you can never find the thread to correct it or go ‘oye, that was duff info you gave’ . In fact it was comments on FB made me start this thread in an attempt to get all the facts out and bust any myths.

This is one of the things we need to get to the bottom of. Are there still cheaply made ones without BMSs? Are the cells in more expensive ones just cheap poor quality ones in a fancy package? How can we identify these things?
Indeed, all points that I concur with - I've a Lithium Battery waiting to go on my KR project, but the manufacturer of the generator and Rec/Rec package I'll be using says don't :(
Even if fitted what would an anti surge protection do exactly (where does that energy go instead :unsure:) and would the cells be susceptible to a thermal event still if poor quality or faulty. We need a few examples for @AirCon to dissect. There are 2 issues I have come across, self combustion of the cells themselves and the over heating of the bikes Reg/Rec, the latter being to most common.
 

AirCon

Resident Thermodynamics / Electronics specialist
Subscriber
Indeed, all points that I concur with - I've a Lithium Battery waiting to go on my KR project, but the manufacturer of the generator and Rec/Rec package I'll be using says don't :(
Even if fitted what would an anti surge protection do exactly (where does that energy go instead :unsure:) and would the cells be susceptible to a thermal event still if poor quality or faulty. We need a few examples for @AirCon to dissect. There are 2 issues I have come across, self combustion of the cells themselves and the over heating of the bikes Reg/Rec, the latter being to most common.
Almost without exception all overvoltage protection devices conduct during an overload event. They are placed across the supply, dissipating the excess energy as heat. Differing technologies are used for different loads and voltages. Anti-surge is normally reserved for a different sort of fault condition than you'd expect to come across in a charge circuit, say lightning or induced currents into long cable runs.
Typically gas discharge or
  • Zener diode
  • Lightning rod.
  • Metal-oxide varistor.
  • SiBar Thyristor.
  • Spark gap.
  • Arcing horns.
  • Avalanche diode.
  • Gas-filled tube.
  • Lightning rod.
  • Metal-oxide varistor.
  • SiBar Thyristor.
  • Spark gap.
  • Transient-voltage-suppression diode.


Overload devices are called fuses.



And stop nagging I'll do it later.
Off out to quote a job... on my day off. :mad:
 
Last edited:

Exige

Elite Member
Subscriber
Almost without exception all overvoltage protection devices conduct during an overload event. They are placed across the supply, dissipating the excess energy as heat. Differing technologies are used for different loads and voltages. Anti-surge is normally reserved for a different sort of fault condition than you'd expect to come across in a charge circuit, say lightening or induced currents into long cable runs.
Typically gas discharge or
  • Zener diode
  • Lightning rod.
  • Metal-oxide varistor.
  • SiBar Thyristor.
  • Spark gap.
  • Arcing horns.
  • Avalanche diode.
  • Gas-filled tube.
  • Lightning rod.
  • Metal-oxide varistor.
  • SiBar Thyristor.
  • Spark gap.
  • Transient-voltage-suppression diode.


Overload devices are called fuses.



And stop nagging I'll do it later.
Off out to quote a job... on my day off. :mad:
Crack on then 🤷‍♂️
 

millemille

Well-known member
Do you know what temperature your regulator was running at with Pb and now with the new battery?
I don't know what temperature the reg was running at, but irrespective of battery type I always mount the reg/rec on a metal bracket, apply heatsink paste between the reg/rec and bracket and, if possible, relocate it to somewhere with a decent air flow (on the multi it is now up in the nose where the oil cooler used to be)....
 

Exige

Elite Member
Subscriber
For anyone else reading this thread, and it took me a fair amount of Googling to find out, but Ferret (as mentioned above is an individual).

Yes, he's Practical Sportsbikes magazine's Electrical Specialist / Contributor and answers all their electrical help questions in the mag.
 

West Cork Paul

Elite Member
Subscriber
I believe the definitive part is this:

1. Lithium batteries weigh much less than LA, however, saving weight is not a reason to fit one on a road bike as just as much weight can be saved, for less money, by making adjustments to you, the rider, and your attire.

2. Lithium batteries cost significantly more than LA ones 👎

3. Lithium batteries have a higher CCA than LA 👍

4. Lithium batteries don’t like cold ie freezing weather 👎

5. Lithium batteries are very susceptible to charging voltage irregularities and are not as forgiving as LA 👎. For this reason and this reason alone one is not advised to retro-fit a lithium battery to a motorcycle. The highly variable output of the stator and the type of reg/rec fitted mean there is a possibility the output of the r/r will fluctuate beyond the range the lithium battery can cope with, leading to a ‘thermal event’. 👎

6. Admittedly the chances of a thermal event occurring are small 👍 but do you want to run that risk?

7. Good quality, modern, Lithium batteries have a battery management system (BMS) which can detect overcharging and stop the charging thus limit, if not avoid completely, a thermal event. 👍 What’s not been answered though is exactly what happens to the voltage output of the r/r if it’s not being used to charge the battery? Where does it go? Would this accelerate damage to the r/r?

8. Where lithium batteries have been fitted by the manufacturer what are they using as the r/r? Even Electrexworld state their modern mosfet r/rs are not to be used in conjunction with a lithium battery, so what should one use?

9. Just because Karen on FB has retro fitted a lithium battery to all their bikes and it’s been fine, does not mean it is. People need to understand all the facts, have all the knowledge, then make a decision for themselves.
 

Exige

Elite Member
Subscriber
8. Where lithium batteries have been fitted by the manufacturer what are they using as the r/r? Even Electrexworld state their modern mosfet r/rs are not to be used in conjunction with a lithium battery, so what should one use?

Here's someone answering 'Ferret's' advice on not to retro fit Lithium Batteries in the latest edition of Practical Sportsbikes Magazine.

He's done research - but has bought an Electrex World R/R but ignored their own advice 🤷‍♂️
Good research there 👀



IMG_5243.jpg
 

AirCon

Resident Thermodynamics / Electronics specialist
Subscriber
Here's someone answering 'Ferret's' advice on not to retro fit Lithium Batteries in the latest edition of Practical Sportsbikes Magazine.

He's done research - but has bought an Electrex World R/R but ignored their own advice 🤷‍♂️
Good research there 👀



View attachment 21501
As with all these people, he doesn't know what he doesn't know.
Well done Elsie for posting, but it is about as useful as a Dox post on the vaccine thread.
 

AirCon

Resident Thermodynamics / Electronics specialist
Subscriber
No it isn't, what about when Electrex World answer next month, it's a story innit 🤷‍♂️ lets hope they reply 👀
How am I supposed to know the above?
I hope they reply and make his arse look as stupid as it is.
Q. What is happening to his gen set, temperature wise? How close is it to failing?

May be rides around with his lights on full, not daytime.
Remember a certain Duke fire where the rider took the bike to work during the day and not his normal night time riding?

PS
What is "Chris" from Mordor's last name?
 

Exige

Elite Member
Subscriber
How am I supposed to know the above?
I hope they reply and make his arse look as stupid as it is.
Q. What is happening to his gen set, temperature wise? How close is it to failing?

May be rides around with his lights on full, not daytime.
Remember a certain Duke fire where the rider took the bike to work during the day and not his normal night time riding?

PS
What is "Chris" from Mordor's last name?
Assume like I did yo u Ass 🤣
 

West Cork Paul

Elite Member
Subscriber
Here's someone answering 'Ferret's' advice on not to retro fit Lithium Batteries in the latest edition of Practical Sportsbikes Magazine.

He's done research - but has bought an Electrex World R/R but ignored their own advice 🤷‍♂️
Good research there 👀



View attachment 21501
I read that article in this months mag and several thoughts crystallised in my mind whilst reading it.
1. I agree with the PS caption under the photo, that’s a stupid voltmeter, it’s ridiculously large.
2. How is making his own voltage meter going to change anything, other than permitting him to keep an eye on the voltage?
3. He issues a lot of instructions about things one must do or should not do when starting and stopping the engine - what a faff. Is anyone really going to remember those all the time?
4. He finishes off by saying those with a ‘performance bent’ can safely retro fit lithium. What performance? How does fitting a lithium battery improve the performance of a bike?

I’m sure PS had several letters after Ferret’s ‘don’t bother’ comment and I reckon they picked the one that sounded most like Karen off FB just so it would incite further letters.

Anyway, it’s his bike he can do what he wants.
 

The skitz

Elite Member
Subscriber
I love my Lithium batteries. 🥰

As a bonus, lithium is used to treat manic depression, so if I'm feeling a bit down I can lick the terminals to give me a nice boost. 😋
If there is anything I've learnt from this tread is to know the temperature of the thingamajiggy before you lick the terminals do you have a temperature for me please 👀😋
 

Noobie

Elite Member
Subscriber
There is an awful lot of data here but can someone keep it simple. What are the benefits of a lithium battery over a standard battery. If it's just weight, wouldn't a good shit cure that ?
 
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