Is is just my imagination or are........

fergie said:
Well.
If mine goes tits as a result of the factory and their displeasing comments then it will probably be the last one I own.

Depreciation I can handle. Kamikaze marketing I can't.
Click to expand...
Yeah,Like the last time you said"I won't set foot in here again" After they wouldn't take your hardley as a trade in!You certainly stick to your guns hahahahahahaha.Dry your eyes pull you neck in and enjoy your bike,just because a new model comes out doesn't mean all that has gone before is pish look at the hoo ha when they facelifted the 749/999 range and Ducati sold lots of pre face lifted model units to Dks.At a stroke they knocked those residuals bonkers i remember they were doing 999s for shy of ten grand.Ducati stores had to react in kind and if you take £3k off a new bike price you can imagine what that does to second hand values.
The real winners are customers who will be offered great deals on what is still a great bike(If they can face the shame of riding last years model that is!!!)
 
Gizmo said:
are you sure on that 1999 figure Henry? AIR few over 600cc bikes get to 3000 units pa. in 96 Ducati's total annual production was 12000 units, 99 was about 19000 a lot of which were monster and its now around 40000 ( i'm sure Nige can give us an exact number)

i'd expect them to sell less SBK anyway, in 99 there wasn't a lot of competition but the R1, GXR1000 and CBR1000RR have changed the mass market and MV, Benelli hit into the high end exclusive segment, they are in a niche which is getting squeezed from both ends......
Click to expand...


DUK records only go back to 2000 for full details, however 1999 was a shade over 3000 units Total UK registrations for Ducati. Superbike would have been ball park 1500. Factory production is around 35k units annually nowadays. Approx 70% is Monster

In 2000 there were 1280 Superbikes registered in the UK
In 2004 there were 1095 Superbikes registered, which included the last few 998S Final Editions.
 
Michael - the figures I quoted were from Bike magazine in 1999 for the 996 and Bike again in 2005 for the 999 so they may be unreliable however what is noticeable from Nige's post above is that sales of Ducati superbikes dropped by a huge 60+% between 2000 and 2004.

I bought a new 998FE in 2004 so I did my bit :)

Just spotted on MCN:

Ducati’s 1098 drew such huge numbers to the manufacturer’s stand at the Seattle motorcycle show, show organisers came close to shutting the stand because of the fire risk caused by the mob.
Fire Marshals insisted that Ducati restricted stand entry to a maximum of 50 at one time, and the restriction meant many show-goers couldn’t see the bike
 
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Henners said:
Michael - the figures I quoted were from Bike magazine in 1999 for the 996 and Bike again in 2005 for the 999 so they may be unreliable however what is noticeable from Nige's post above is that sales of Ducati superbikes dropped by a huge 60+% between 2000 and 2004.

I bought a new 998FE in 2004 so I did my bit :)
Click to expand...

its actually about 14% drop in SBK sales Without all brand sales data to look at I wonder if the market for large capacity superbikes grew or fell in those years? its still not bad sales figures but Ducati no longer want to be a niche player, it seems rather crazy to go head to head with Yamaha and Honda but if your new investment company owners want a short term return I guess you gotta do what you gotta do :(
 
You're right - misread Nige's post. OK between 1999 and 2004 the drop was of the order of 60% if Bike is to be believed. I admire your loyalty to the 999 however the good news is that the 1098 is proving to be popular if the Milan and Seattle shows are anything to go by.

Perhaps Nige can tell us how many 1098s have been ordered in the UK?
 
Gizmo said:
its actually about 14% drop in SBK sales Without all brand sales data to look at I wonder if the market for large capacity superbikes grew or fell in those years? its still not bad sales figures but Ducati no longer want to be a niche player, it seems rather crazy to go head to head with Yamaha and Honda but if your new investment company owners want a short term return I guess you gotta do what you gotta do :(
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That is one of the big questions Gizmo and this was covered in an earlier post about why we buy Ducati. Very few of us on here see ourselves "mainstream" and I personally don't want every second bike I pass on the road to be a Ducati. I'll off and buy another Italian if that happens. There is a danger of losing your core customers by pandering to a quick buck. To some extent Porsche had that in the late 80's when all the "yuppies" jumped on the bandwagon as the "must have" sign of sucess rather than what the car was, it's history etc. It's a fine line to walk and the factory owners will need to have a very clear idea of who their customers really are and how they take it forward. I hope they get it right but time will tell.
 
239desmo said:
That is one of the big questions Gizmo and this was covered in an earlier post about why we buy Ducati. Very few of us on here see ourselves "mainstream" and I personally don't want every second bike I pass on the road to be a Ducati. I'll off and buy another Italian if that happens. There is a danger of losing your core customers by pandering to a quick buck. To some extent Porsche had that in the late 80's when all the "yuppies" jumped on the bandwagon as the "must have" sign of sucess rather than what the car was, it's history etc. It's a fine line to walk and the factory owners will need to have a very clear idea of who their customers really are and how they take it forward. I hope they get it right but time will tell.
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I totally agree Stewart hence my concerns, when you lose the passion and its replaced with fudged marketing led decisions its a short term strategy doomed to failure in the long run. I've bought a new bike every year for quite a while, bought 4 Ducati's in 4 years yet this is the first year I haven't bought a new Ducati and am unlikely to do so next year, the loss to ducati won't be obvious as it'll be covered by all the new 1098 owners but what do they do after that?
 
Gizmo said:
I totally agree Stewart hence my concerns, when you lose the passion and its replaced with fudged marketing led decisions its a short term strategy doomed to failure in the long run. I've bought a new bike every year for quite a while, bought 4 Ducati's in 4 years yet this is the first year I haven't bought a new Ducati and am unlikely to do so next year, the loss to ducati won't be obvious as it'll be covered by all the new 1098 owners but what do they do after that?
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At a recent dealer meeting the Commercial Director of Ducati Motor Holdings told us that "Ducati are a niche market, that is what we will always be".

This is what we sell, the brand itself has never been stronger in my experience. The product will always be a niche / aspirational purchase. The price of the product to the end user almost ensures that.
In the same breath though, we must remember that the name of this game is BIKE SALES!
In strict terms, Ducati are in the business to sell motorcycles and make money doing it. Their passion (and ours - feeding from that passion) is what makes the brand what it is.

I speak for myself and not Ducati, and i'm going to be blunt here, i'm in business to make money in the hobby that I love, with a brand i'm hooked on and think is the very best that money can buy! :)
I don't ever want to struggle at this, I want to have a comfortable living that repays the hard years of work (blood, sweat and tears) I have put into this.
That all amounts to consistent bike sales and consistent growth (what every business strives for).
I want to grow the business, share the fun and wealth, employ more people and expand so that more and more potential Ducati enthusiasts find out why we're all having so much fun and love this brand. Thats the end goal from all of this!:)

Mart:D
 
Gizmo said:
its actually about 14% drop in SBK sales Without all brand sales data to look at I wonder if the market for large capacity superbikes grew or fell in those years? its still not bad sales figures but Ducati no longer want to be a niche player, it seems rather crazy to go head to head with Yamaha and Honda but if your new investment company owners want a short term return I guess you gotta do what you gotta do :(
Click to expand...


Without divulging any company secrets: my understanding of the new owners goals is to return to lower volume but with a higher margin on the machines we build. This means concentrating on building the most desirable products in a controlled manner, whilst returning a better factory margin.

In short we are not able to compete head to head with the Japanese in volume. Our production of circa 35k units per annum is a minute fraction of Honda's global produce at around (I can never remember the correct one) 3 or 9 million units. So you can see we are a very small fish in a very large pond.

I am convinced the new owners are well aware of the strength of the brand and the part that they need to play in protecting that. One thing we do not want to achieve is losing the core of loyal customers we already have.

On the subject of 1098 sales; we have in excess of 150 customer deposits and my phone is melting at the end of every day with dealers wanting more bikes than we can build, hence the sleepless nights mentioned elsewhere on the site :(
 
All Talk aside, These are Exciting Times, lets just Enjoy the Success that the Brand is having at the moment.

I am loving the pub talk at the moment with all my Jap bike owner friends.

/ian
 
berto said:
Yeah,Like the last time you said"I won't set foot in here again" After they wouldn't take your hardley as a trade in!You certainly stick to your guns hahahahahahaha.Dry your eyes pull you neck in and enjoy your bike,just because a new model comes out doesn't mean all that has gone before is pish look at the hoo ha when they facelifted the 749/999 range and Ducati sold lots of pre face lifted model units to Dks.At a stroke they knocked those residuals bonkers i remember they were doing 999s for shy of ten grand.Ducati stores had to react in kind and if you take £3k off a new bike price you can imagine what that does to second hand values.
The real winners are customers who will be offered great deals on what is still a great bike(If they can face the shame of riding last years model that is!!!)
Click to expand...


Hey Tubby, you remember a lot, but your facts are slightly askew.
I never did buy a bike from 'that' dealership. In fact I actually drove 900 miles to collect the HP2, so my guns are well and truly stuck.
I am enjoying my bike immensly, and nothing anyone says can possibly detract from the feeling of pride I get everytime I ride it come rain or shine. I had the Xerox out on Monday, took it to work and back in THAT weather, and then spent 2 hours cleaning it. So please save your 'just enjoy it for what it is' talk for your girlfriend. Disappointment is disappointment. She will know all about that!
Values and pre-registration? I work for......well you know who I work for and we pretty much invented that type of trading. Nobody does it better. We also offer value. Read the whole thread, get an adult to help you with the big words if need be, and understand this is not what the discussion was about.

Now. I'm off to have a beer with Stuart and look up the best deals on R1's.


Only kidding Martin!;)
 
It's important I feel that all Ducati owners and future owners make their views known on this subject as WE are the people keeping the factory and dealers afloat and our thoughts MUST influence those "up the line" if Ducati is to continue and be successful. Can I suggest that ALL DuN members speak up, (and thanks to Gizmo you have the perfect vehicle here!) and hopefully in our small way we can be part of the future. There are nearly 500 members now so we are a sizeable and active minority! And surprisingly sometimes we talk sense!
 
fergie said:
Hey Tubby, you remember a lot, but your facts are slightly askew.
I never did buy a bike from 'that' dealership. In fact I actually drove 900 miles to collect the HP2, so my guns are well and truly stuck.
I am enjoying my bike immensly, and nothing anyone says can possibly detract from the feeling of pride I get everytime I ride it come rain or shine. I had the Xerox out on Monday, took it to work and back in THAT weather, and then spent 2 hours cleaning it. So please save your 'just enjoy it for what it is' talk for your girlfriend. Disappointment is disappointment. She will know all about that!
Values and pre-registration? I work for......well you know who I work for and we pretty much invented that type of trading. Nobody does it better. We also offer value. Read the whole thread, get an adult to help you with the big words if need be, and understand this is not what the discussion was about.

Now. I'm off to have a beer with Stuart and look up the best deals on R1's.


Only kidding Martin!;)
Click to expand...

no holding back are we ? :p

pmsl.

/ian
 
fergie said:
Hey Tubby, you remember a lot, but your facts are slightly askew.
I never did buy a bike from 'that' dealership. In fact I actually drove 900 miles to collect the HP2, so my guns are well and truly stuck.
I am enjoying my bike immensly, and nothing anyone says can possibly detract from the feeling of pride I get everytime I ride it come rain or shine. I had the Xerox out on Monday, took it to work and back in THAT weather, and then spent 2 hours cleaning it. So please save your 'just enjoy it for what it is' talk for your girlfriend. Disappointment is disappointment. She will know all about that!
Values and pre-registration? I work for......well you know who I work for and we pretty much invented that type of trading. Nobody does it better. We also offer value. Read the whole thread, get an adult to help you with the big words if need be, and understand this is not what the discussion was about.

Now. I'm off to have a beer with Stuart and look up the best deals on R1's.


Only kidding Martin!;)
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Ha ha you really are a thick fud,I was in fact referring to your tantrum regarding a multistrudle and I never mentioned pre-reg it actually said pre face lifted so go back and get your money from the remedial reading class as it obviously didn't take.you total fanny!!!
On another note could you think up another classic thread along the lines of the "proper riding gear" one as that still makes me laugh!!!And finally when did you start drinking beer? I thought you were a buckfast with pimms chaser type of Cumbernauldy!!
 
I think Martin and Nige have hit the nail squarely on the thumb - thanks chaps :) Ducati have a fantastic brand and real loyalty amongst it's owners, they need to maintain that and grow the brand however the bottom line is always going to be shareholder value - the shareholders own the company.

The 999 didn't support that basic business model and now the Ducati have done some, IMHO, really brave and forward thinking initatives to make the company profitable again, like the new 1098 and extending servicing intervals plus the other new models for 2007.

Yes - Gizmo is unhappy that his beloved 999 is being dropped amidst clear indications from Ducati that they saw it as a mistake (Bike magazine again) and that's gotta hurt; I really sympathise with that view because I felt the same when the 998 was phased out in 2002 and ended up buying an ST3 instead of a 999 :eek:

Whatever the future holds I strongly believe that Ducati have done the right thing and I wish them a truly successful 2007 without job losses, renewed profitability, and a fresh influx of new Ducatisti - Cheers :beer:
 
berto said:
Ha ha you really are a thick fud,I was in fact referring to your tantrum regarding a multistrudle and I never mentioned pre-reg it actually said pre face lifted so go back and get your money from the remedial reading class as it obviously didn't take.you total fanny!!!
On another note could you think up another classic thread along the lines of the "proper riding gear" one as that still makes me laugh!!!And finally when did you start drinking beer? I thought you were a buckfast with pimms chaser type of Cumbernauldy!!
Click to expand...

Berto

I tried on many occasions to buy a bike from you but then again you did not earn the title of DPO or Deal Prevention Officer easily. The sort of resistance to actually doing your job you showed was truly remarkable.
I cannot remember that far back, but I think I did look at a Multistrada at one point.
As for pre reg and facelift they are generally one and the same.

And back to the subject, the annoyance is not whether my bike had depreciated faster than a third world currency, but rather the Factory saying silly things like 'mistake' and 'not any good' about a bike that kept them well and truly in the public eye at a time when losses could have seen them go to the wall.
Mr Henners chose to use some slightly doubtful figures to make a point. That to me also seems irrelevant and the figures dodgy to say the least.

Now to the name calling. You are tubby. That is a given. And I have eczema which makes my face red. 1-1.
You are short. I am tall. 1-2.
I have more hair than you. 1-3.
You know more about bikes than me. 2-3.
You have been to foreign trackdays.3-3.
You are a member of the DSC. 3-4.

And......................I may be a fanny, fud or any other names you get from Viz...........





















But at least I'm still allowed in Ducati Glasgow!;)
 
I am banned from the dsc 10-0,and the ukmoc 20-0 and am not allowed in lots of places 500-0.
I do enjoy our chats,I didn't sell you a bike cos you came across as a classic timewaster/fanny/fud and until you showed a sense of humour on here I was still of that opinion but your Dickension use of the Queen's and classic fuddiduddieness has won me over.
I think you will find facelifted and pre registered bikes are totally different go into the shop you said you wouldn't be in again and ask....ya big black dog's cock(c)viz.
Over n oot
x
 
Henners said:
I think Martin and Nige have hit the nail squarely on the thumb - thanks chaps :) Ducati have a fantastic brand and real loyalty amongst it's owners, they need to maintain that and grow the brand however the bottom line is always going to be shareholder value - the shareholders own the company.

The 999 didn't support that basic business model and now the Ducati have done some, IMHO, really brave and forward thinking initatives to make the company profitable again, like the new 1098 and extending servicing intervals plus the other new models for 2007.

Yes - Gizmo is unhappy that his beloved 999 is being dropped amidst clear indications from Ducati that they saw it as a mistake (Bike magazine again) and that's gotta hurt; I really sympathise with that view because I felt the same when the 998 was phased out in 2002 and ended up buying an ST3 instead of a 999 :eek:

Whatever the future holds I strongly believe that Ducati have done the right thing and I wish them a truly successful 2007 without job losses, renewed profitability, and a fresh influx of new Ducatisti - Cheers :beer:
Click to expand...

Henry, its not that I'm upset at the dropping of the 999 its the direction being taken with marketing more important than product and the rather weird alienation of customers who've bought 999's and now multistradas ( food mixer comment from Ducati employee in this weeks MCN). They risk losing a lot of customers with this high profile approach and I hope Nige and Martin pass the comments from 999 owners on as i do believe a bit of tact is needed!! there is a very similar thread running on multistrada net with the same comments as fergie made starting this thread.

I am upset that they haven't produced a bike i want to buy, i enjoy new toys ( as i know you do) but can't see myself buying a 1098 just because of its look :(

its rather easy to think you know where Ducati are headed, InvestIndustrial ( formerly 21 Invest) will have their own opinions , I'm hoping it is a long term game plan from them but given that their business isn't making or selling bikes its building companies and selling them one will only find out in 3 years time what is or isn't the right thing and for whom :D.

I hope it does all work out, maybe next year they'll surprise me with a cheaper DD that i will want ( and can afford) to buy, until then they've got a busy order book and loads of customers wanting their bikes which should mean more people at our rideouts and socials which has to be good :)
 
also disappointed

I read with growing excitement the preliminary reports about the Hypermotard very early in the year - in that Ducati were going to do 2 versions: 695 & 1000.
However, I was disappointed to find that when going into production that only a 1100 was to come out - and rather taller than the current Multi.
I have a M1000sie & was hoping to add (not replace) a fun bike to the Ducati's in the garage, but alas the money will stay in the bank now:(

What exactly are Ducati going to be able to do for those of us who are not 6 ft tall, or those of us who do like to 'touch down with toes both sides' or for those who dont/cant have a sports bike?:confused:

I dont want a run of the mill hondakwakazuki bike.

I'd like to buy a new Ducati, but I am not compromising my present comfort zone of ride height:o :(
I do lurve my Ducatis :D we have 4 between us in the garage:cool:

So - advice from 'those in the know' please.............:)
 
Buy some glam rock boots C maybe? :D

Possibly part of the issue is the 916 et al though...

Imagine if you were an early 916 owner of even one now.. you have 3 generations of superbike (not including the 748 here) that are pretty much fundamentally the same at least from a looks point of view.

And as I did bought a 996 then a 998 and any extra's that were on the 996 that I wanted to keep were eventually transferred onto the 998.

Then came the 749/999 completely different and I had to start again, even things like after market quick shifters couldn't (easily) be transferred onto the 999 because of the loom.

So look at from an owners perspective for the best part of 10 years the 916 hasn't dated simply because they tweaked the design (Porsche....) so all of the owners were happy residuals were good because no matter what you bought it was a Ducati superbike known around the world as a design icon.

....but Ducati knew the 916 had to go, no doubt Ducati Corse played a big part in the design (swingarm...) and the 999 was born, and being brutally honest whatever Ducati produced was always going to be glared at, I think they did the right thing rather than create an evolution they decided to produce a completely different BETTER bike, the issue was the loyal 916-998 owners didn't buy it, there's lots of second hand 916's out there but there's a hardcore of Ducati fans who can afford to spend £14-20K on a bike and they simply didn't I'm guessing.

Add to that the facelift announced at Laguna 2004 (WSB) that instantly killed the remaining sales in 2004 and bikes were discounted heavily, not a great marketing plan by Ducati, plus the later swingarm made all sorts of complications when it came to exhausts.

And in 2006 I've seen more 749/999's on the road than ever so to me things must be improving, but I guess Ducati needs to beat the Japanese on the track and also with the new owners want to sell more bikes and the 1098 was born.
 
Jon i think it all starts on the track, if Ducati are winning on the track with a bike (916/998/999) then people WILL go out & buy that bike.

Bikes need Heritage.

As long as they keep doing the business on the track, they will be just fine imo.

/ian
 
AK & CK said:
However, I was disappointed to find that when going into production that only a 1100 was to come out - and rather taller than the current Multi.
So - advice from 'those in the know' please.............:)
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It's tiny.......:D
 
Nige Ducati UK said:
It's tiny.......:D
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err, maybe if you are over 6ft tall.

But even Frederico struggled with it for height - and he is at least 5 inches taller than me. (I'm 5ft 5, and not blessed with long skinny legs either:( )

Sorry, didnt buy a MS as couldnt touch down at all, unless I did the 'shimmy' and 'wiggle' to slide forwards & then slide hard to the left to enable me to even get a toe on the floor:o
Struggled with the 749/999 too:( would have had one but its not fun always looking for a kerb when you need to stop.

C, off to wait again - or maybe risking divorce & getting a new Buell instead:eek:
 
AK & CK said:
err, maybe if you are over 6ft tall.

But even Frederico struggled with it for height - and he is at least 5 inches taller than me. (I'm 5ft 5, and not blessed with long skinny legs either:( )

Sorry, didnt buy a MS as couldnt touch down at all, unless I did the 'shimmy' and 'wiggle' to slide forwards & then slide hard to the left to enable me to even get a toe on the floor:o
Struggled with the 749/999 too:( would have had one but its not fun always looking for a kerb when you need to stop.

C, off to wait again - or maybe risking divorce & getting a new Buell instead:eek:
Click to expand...

C what bikes do you fit then ?

/ian
 
comfortably?

M1000sie - with Ducati lowered seat
M620's
All models of carbie monsters
NC21's
Most buells
Bandits - 1200 better than 600 (amazingly!)
All 'older jap stuff' - like AK's Lawson rep etc
Morini's - both new ones

Basically most that is not a sports bike, no 'traillies' etc.

Have ridden the 749 & 999 - wee bit better in height than the 996's I've ridden but still a bit too 'tippy toe' (I say toe, as cant do both)for me to use as a regular tool:o
(cant buy a sportsbike now for regular riding, as my back is a bit shot)
Multi 1000 was toooo tall - even AK said so for him too.

C, short & dumpy:(
 
yea i one seen a woman pick up her 749 from DG & she was tippy toeing it, but when she got up & moving she was fine, just wouldnt be very cool if ya fell over at the front of a set of traffic lights.

/ian
 
Know what you mean Charlotte - even with the 'low' seat I never felt comfortable on my old 1200GS and I'm 5'10" but with only 30" inside leg. MS didn't fit either however the GSX-R is very low and comfortable and the new
R1200R even better. Haven't tried the 1098 yet .......

In response to Michael's point about the direction of Ducati marketing they have to produce what people want to buy. It's no good a bike being fantastic if no one wants to buy it and even though the 999 won 3 WSB championships it didn't sell enough. I remember meeting the Ducati top brass at a dinner at Silverstone a few years ago and asking why they were getting rid of the 998 to be told it wouldn't meet emmission regulations; I thought at the time that if the engine could meet it in the 999 why not the 998?

It is clear from what people on the exec within Ducati are saying that alot of the financial woes of the company are being laid at the door of the 999. The way they have treated owners, especially 999R owners through updating the S and Bip models, selling bikes off cheap to parallel dealers etc. isn't good. Clearly PT is very much out of favour for both the T9 and the MS. Hopefully being less innovative will be more profitable for the company.
 
Henners

I have a very low threshold for pish and speculation. You say that the 999 was the reason Ducati made no money? Qualify that with fact, not speculation, or retract it. I would be amazed if you can......

As far as emission regs go. I work in the car trade. We lose cars from the market all the time. Truth is not many people notice. Euro regs mean that models cease. Bikes are no different and it is not as simple as just bolting in a new engine.

now. The 1098. I defended it when all and sundry said it looked too Japanese. I am sure it will be a success as the 749 and 999 were. When you remember that the job is done.:D
 
I reckon the 1098 will sell well, 999 will keep good used prices as they are good kit anyway, and they will be much cheaper than new; which is probably what didn't help sales anyway. They still look different. It's not unfair to 999 owners either - they have a great bike and it will remain so. It's only those who MUST change their bike every year who will feel they have had a raw deal on them. We'll still all ride anyway, so what's the problem? Now......where's the best deal on used 999's.........
 
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