Ducati going forward?

Freak said:
I'm glad Martin has replied as it shows what Ducati UK are thinking, but and there's always a but ;) it doesn't answer the questions of current bikes as I asked earlier if Joe Public buys say a 2006 bike and then in 2007 the same bike, or same engine etc is 50% cheaper to service would he be happy? That must hit depreciation for a potential buyer everyone would rather have 1/2 price servicing, 2 year warranty etc probably over a discounted bike. Works great for Ducati sales but hits current customers hard and no one either seems to pick up on this or care.
...

Jon,

I saw this back in '97/'98 when I was selling 916s for £12-12.5k, then suddenly the prices came down. The poor old present owners were suddenly left with a virtually new bike that was worth £3-4k less purely coz one could go out and buy the next years model for less than their 6 month old one. This caused many a bad taste in the mouth for many Ducati owners, and we were powerless to help them!
 
ProjectImola004 said:
Jon,

I saw this back in '97/'98 when I was selling 916s for £12-12.5k, then suddenly the prices came down. The poor old present owners were suddenly left with a virtually new bike that was worth £3-4k less purely coz one could go out and buy the next years model for less than their 6 month old one. This caused many a bad taste in the mouth for many Ducati owners, and we were powerless to help them!

Ah nothing has changed then LOL!!!
 
having worked for jap dealers i can hand on heart say that jap bikes are no more reliable than ducatis, but when i say that to people they all think im biased,which in all honesty im not really.i wasnt the only person that found the fjr1300 dips in low speed corners,not horribly but enough to disquiet you. yet it was regularly rated as a great bike.i like the look of xjr1300s and if your wanting to cross continents there is probably very little as good as the goldwing 1800 to do it on.
mcn proved it with three engines when they pitted a triumph a honda and a ducati against each other. the triumph blew up the honda bent its valves and the ducati was the only one that was totally within manufacturers tolerances,yet due to their advertising and also consistent quality everyone percieves honda to be better.
a lot of the idea that jap bikes are reliable comes from the old days when they were up against nortons bsa and triumphs who had poor spares backup as well as a we build whats right for you not what you want attitude.theyre still living on a 30 to 40 year old reputation.
for those of you that werent about at the time, there were thousands of bikers out there who swore blind they wouldnt ride a jap bike,does anybody else remember the saying "jap crap". these people and their descendents are now the guardians of those same japanese machines saying their better than anything else.
its not helped by the media in this country. youve seen the programme about bungs in brittish football. well believe me things in certain motorcycle publications are done on a similar line. tho more on the you give us a good review and ill spend that £80,000 on this weeks advert.all though its not always that expensive.but im going of topic here.
i think so long as the likes of ducati and bmw stick in it for the long run they will take up more and more of the market.
 
Well at the risk of provoking the wrath of the likes of Martin, I don't really think it has.

Having said that, it happens in everywhere you look; I had many mates who bought brand new 911s back in the late '90s, only to find that Porsche did exactly the same - cut their prices, leaving these 'nearly new' owners with cars which were in negative equity (as it were)!!
 
ProjectImola004 said:
Well at the risk of provoking the wrath of the likes of Martin, I don't really think it has.

Having said that, it happens in everywhere you look; I had many mates who bought brand new 911s back in the late '90s, only to find that Porsche did exactly the same - cut their prices, leaving these 'nearly new' owners with cars which were in negative equity (as it were)!!
yeh but they were yuppie types so the buggers deserved it :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
 
Hang on in there.

There is a way to beat depreciation. if you hang on to a bike long enough, 30 years should do it values appear to turn around and in most cases they are priced at more more than their new price new:eek:


Think I'm talking pish............Take a look on autotrader at some old stuff, e.g. Old Kwacker triples, they are priced up well above their orginal prices in 1974.

An old Jag e-type in the 70's at the height of the Fuel crisis when you could buy 'em for few hundred, now a basket case costs thousands.

maybe ya don't beat inflation but ya do beat depreciation.


Ray.
 
Ray said:
Hang on in there.

There is a way to beat depreciation. if you hang on to a bike long enough, 30 years should do it values appear to turn around and in most cases they are priced at more more than their new price new:eek:


Think I'm talking pish............Take a look on autotrader at some old stuff, e.g. Old Kwacker triples, they are priced up well above their orginal prices in 1974.

An old Jag e-type in the 70's at the height of the Fuel crisis when you could buy 'em for few hundred, now a basket case costs thousands.

maybe ya don't beat inflation but ya do beat depreciation.


Ray.

I don't disagree here - 888s in their various guises are currently worth more than the 916 range- :eek:
Russ has just experienced this!
 
Freak said:
I'm glad Martin has replied as it shows what Ducati UK are thinking, but and there's always a but ;) it doesn't answer the questions of current bikes as I asked earlier if Joe Public buys say a 2006 bike and then in 2007 the same bike, or same engine etc is 50% cheaper to service would he be happy? That must hit depreciation for a potential buyer everyone would rather have 1/2 price servicing, 2 year warranty etc probably over a discounted bike. Works great for Ducati sales but hits current customers hard and no one either seems to pick up on this or care.

The Hypermotard is a great looking bike, but to make it competitively priced it's got to be below 8K with pipes and have it's first service thrown in for free to compete, parts/bodywork need to be cheap as chips also to compete with it's direct opposition, I honestly can't imagine the seat unit plastics or side panels would be £60 or £40 repesctively comparing this to it's opposition? Then servicing £150 per service? It's a tough market to get into for sure but the bike is nice and it will sell to the Ducatisti.

Finally the Desmo, yes they can sell 1000's of them but I would guess most buyers want one because of what it stands for the engineering and the rareriety, 3-400 bikes is fairly rare but over 1000? It'll make the 996R, 998R, Bayliss/Bostrom Reps, FE, Matrix, 748R, Senna's a rarer buy then....

I can see your point Jon. I do sympathise with present owners but the reality is that for eg in our store we do not charge full price for the servicing because very rarely does everything need done.

The official quoted price on the service schedule would scare most potential buyers off. Thats why we quote and charge reasonable "ball-park" figures that we know, with experience will be far more accurate.

Other dealers don't do that. Some quote and charge full service cost no matter how much work is carried out. In my view this is totally wrong.:mad:

In future the service schedule will now show realistic parts and service costs that will be far more in line with what is truly required. This can only help bring people to our brand.

I have to say that this is what we all as customers want. The factory are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Reduce service costs - upset present customers and reduce service costs - gain more customers. I mean how do they win?
This is what the Global community have demanded from the factory.

Truth is after we have all traded our bikes in a few years from now we will all benefit.
Those that keep the older machines, bought them with the knowledge of the costs that existed at that time. They must accept that technology moves on and costs will decrease with time.

As to limited numbers, as the factory grows and becomes stronger and more widespread (more dealers and stores are opening worldwide all the time, 3 or 4 in the UK this year alone)
Limited numbers of special bikes will have to increase to cover this growth.
Market penetration will be at similar levels although the units will be further spread out through a wider network, this shows true growth and better stability.

I mean look at America, Ducati is really growing over there, many of the Desmosedici will be headed there, whereas before very few units crossed the water. The amount of units that will be heading into the UK, Europe and the rest of the world, will be comparable to those machines you have noted above. The rarity will not be affected, not negatively anyway.

Ducati are not attempting to be mainstream like the Jap stuff but to me cannot be faulted for getting the same market penetration in each country they are represented.
I am also happy to see a more stable and secure future for a brand that I am financially linked to.
 
Devils advocate here again (sorry)...

That's not helping Ducati sell new bikes though is it?

I recall Michael going on last week about BMW buy their bikes back to keep residuals high amongst other things, I know nothing about BMW's to be fair but there's a few people on here with them who might be better qualified to explain it.
 
ProjectImola004 said:
I don't disagree here - 888s in their various guises are currently worth more than the 916 range- :eek:
Russ has just experienced this!

Ducati were only making the 888 for about four years while the 916 in all it's different guises were sold for eight years and then there were the 748 as well! So that is probably why 888 prices are good
 
Martin hit the nail upon the head, virtually everything depreciates, it just a case of how much, its the consumer society we live in.

I agree with Martins comments about the 'stretta engine being better than the 996, but thats why personally the 996R/998 varients are my favourites as they combine the best of both worlds, especially with a few cheap mods to the riding position as previously listed.

You're right Ray, looks like we're stuck with our high mileage sheds, what a shame.

Much though i love Ducati's and at the risk of being burnt at the stake as a heretic i think one of Ducati's biggest competitors in the future will be KTM.

KTM were nearly bust in the 90's but have had a massive resurgence. Establishing a brand name with (off road) competition history and producung some cracking road bikes now, and with a sports bike in the wings.

The build quality is very good and getting better and in the respective areas, the Adventure/Supermoto/Superduke are highly regarded.

I can think of 5 people on this board that currently also own Kost Too Much's as well as Ducati's, says something.

The 950 KTM's have had a few teething problems, but i also know of 2 bikes that have passed the 50,000 mile mark already. Like Ducati they are bikes with a indefinable soul that the Jap bikes tend to lack, with quality components and not outlandish prices either. A manufacturer to watch with the declared aim of being Europes largest manufacturer.

I'll get my orange coloured Koat and be gone.
 
Freak said:
Devils advocate here again (sorry)...

That's not helping Ducati sell new bikes though is it?

I recall Michael going on last week about BMW buy their bikes back to keep residuals high amongst other things, I know nothing about BMW's to be fair but there's a few people on here with them who might be better qualified to explain it.


Don't know what Michael said about BMW residuals, the GS range do very well, but a lot of the other models still take a big hit. I know 2 people who have done deals on K1200RS's recently who said as much.
 
BDG said:
Don't know what Michael said about BMW residuals, the GS range do very well, but a lot of the other models still take a big hit. I know 2 people who have done deals on K1200RS's recently who said as much.

Maybe it's certain models then I'm really not sure Shaun, I don't know enough about them saying that they're on the verge of MotoGP also so no doubt BMW will make a "proper" sportsbike at some point now then also another competitor?

As you said KTM are now back and selling more bikes than Ducati, I've got a video clip here of the SB8 superbike testing at a circuit and we've already seen how competitive they been in 125/250GP's I really do think KTM will be Ducati's in competitor in 10-20 years if they keep their pricing as is and spares/accessories etc then I really do think they'll go a long long way in the future.

As you say there's at least 5 of us on here alone with one and I know of at least one or two others on the verge of chopping in their current Ducati for KTM's equivalent machine, I hope Ducati can see that back at the factory and really do make the Hypermotard something special.
 
I personally think the 749/999's are great bikes but just havn't caught the imagination of the buying public because the 748/998 range are still thought of as THE Ducati sports bikes.No one can dispute the new range were better road bikes in most areas but that isn't why people buy a Ducati.IMO Ducati need to make their mind up what they want to concentrate on and stop trying to have a finger in all the pies.The St range seems to be there just for the hell of it these days because like it or not most people think Ducati + high mileage = trouble so that @@@@es on a Ducati tourer(not always the case as you and I know).
The Sports classics are never going to sell the amount ducati needs because as a niche market how many Thruxton's do you see about eh?
I think they have to concentrate on the sports bikes(not the DD'S which are just another marketing masterstroke)but something to tempt the jap bike buyers (who spend a good bit on the bikes these days as most GSXR'S,R1'S ETC have a couple of grand spent on them)onto a Ducati.
The Monsters will go on and on cos they are bang on but I will believe the reduction by 50% on servicing when monkeys fly out of Davie's butt.
I was also saddened to hear about the redundancies at Ducati U.K cos whether or not you call it streamling or whatever job losses are bad news...
 
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Freak said:
Devils advocate here again (sorry)...

That's not helping Ducati sell new bikes though is it?

I recall Michael going on last week about BMW buy their bikes back to keep residuals high amongst other things, I know nothing about BMW's to be fair but there's a few people on here with them who might be better qualified to explain it.

No apologies needed mate!:)

What IS going to help Ducati sell more units (for me) is encompased in a number of new details.
The new bikes are reliable, significanly cheaper to service, and for the machines that took a while for customers to adapt to (Multi for example) are far more widely accepted.
This is what Ducati have been asked to produce by the press, media, public and existing customers. They are delivering what they have been asked for. I can only see this resulting in an increase in sales opportunity.

Couple these facts with a flagship like the D16 leading the brand image and a new Superbike that will draw customers back on both looks and performance and the future looks exciting to say the least.

The inclusion of the Hypermotard in the lineup with its expected volume is a massive boost both financially and fresh area it brings brand image wise. When new customers on the new breed of Ducati realise all of the hype surrounding the brand is false, word of mouth should act better than any advertising campaign. This will sell bikes for us.:)

The D16 is a huge cherry on top with the revenue it will generate and the image it portrays.

This is a time of massive change for the factory. They are turning a corner in their development.
Any preconceived ideas that the public may have right now are going to be addressed in a more aggressive fashion than ever before.

The product should and will speak positive volumes for itself.

I may end up eating my words but I seriously doubt it.

As to the BMW comparison, they have a very different network with more dedicated dealers and allocations per dealer. They also have a signifcant level of support from a well respected and very successful car industry.

It is no secret they have the ability to trade on the back of that success.

However their residuals, whilst some of the best in the market on some models (as BDG has noted) is comparable (or at times worse) than the rest of the market on other less desirable machinery. Again we are back to supply and demand.
It would be a bit of a sweeping generalisation to expect or state that the entire brand does not suffer poor residual results at times.

BMW have had a massive resurgence in the market place in the last couple of years. Fair play to them, it's been with good marketing, clever ideas and good products.

Each manufacturer has their pros and cons. I believe Ducati have had a good look at the way their business has been working for the last few years and have put an action plan together that shows true promise.
 
If the comic is to be believed Berto might have something,

".....they have also heard product Director Claudio Domeniciali is in firm opposition to Ducati producing anything but focused sports machines, meaning the Multistrada and ST series are living on borrowed time"

Ray.
 
FlyingMonkey1-Color.jpg


:D :D
 
Ray said:
If the comic is to be believed Berto might have something,

".....they have also heard product Director Claudio Domeniciali is in firm opposition to Ducati producing anything but focused sports machines, meaning the Multistrada and ST series are living on borrowed time"

Ray.
Ducati's leaked "Strategic Document" which was published on the internet and quoted on the Motor Cycle Numpty made that fairly clear by not mentioning them. Although it has never been confirmed.
I expect to be replacing my ST4s in about 3 years. By that time it will have 36-40K on it. I suppose that will be regarded as clapped by current standards. If there are no more STs maybe I'll just have to hang on to it for another 40K, or maybe I could find a low mileage S4RS motor to drop into it ;)
Martin, any chance I could try out an ST3 sometime to find out for myself if it's as good as you say it is?
 
Isn't it the fact that the factory can't win? Why do most of us buy a Ducati? It is a combination of looks, sounds, history, performance (to a point), and a certain exclusiveness. If you could buy the bike for 25% less than the corresponding Japanese offering, with minimal servicing costs, and the rest of the biking world was buying them, would we? Don't we see ourselves as being slightly "different"? The truth is we know we are paying more for the bike and possibly running costs, but because of the above we will live with it. The fine line comes at which point we feel we are now being taken for a ride. Messing about with product line-ups and pricing WILL upset customers. We show our loyalty by buying the product and we want to see that loyalty rewarded. Fiirstly that the bike you just bought is not obsolete overnight and secondly how happy are you that the servicing costs half overnight? Do you think, great, can do lots more miles for the same costs, or I've been stitched up for the last "x" years? From my experience if I tell a client they are paying half for next year compared to last the reaction I get is you're a thieving b****r!
Like Martin says, You pee off your "old" customers and hope to attract new ones. Trouble is get the balance wrong and you lose everyone. :eek:
 
239desmo said:
Isn't it the fact that the factory can't win? Why do most of us buy a Ducati? It is a combination of looks, sounds, history, performance (to a point), and a certain exclusiveness. If you could buy the bike for 25% less than the corresponding Japanese offering, with minimal servicing costs, and the rest of the biking world was buying them, would we? Don't we see ourselves as being slightly "different"? The truth is we know we are paying more for the bike and possibly running costs, but because of the above we will live with it. The fine line comes at which point we feel we are now being taken for a ride. Messing about with product line-ups and pricing WILL upset customers. We show our loyalty by buying the product and we want to see that loyalty rewarded. Fiirstly that the bike you just bought is not obsolete overnight and secondly how happy are you that the servicing costs half overnight? Do you think, great, can do lots more miles for the same costs, or I've been stitched up for the last "x" years? From my experience if I tell a client they are paying half for next year compared to last the reaction I get is you're a thieving b****r!
Like Martin says, You pee off your "old" customers and hope to attract new ones. Trouble is get the balance wrong and you lose everyone. :eek:

Why couldn't I say it like that? Bang on Stewart
 
239desmo said:
Isn't it the fact that the factory can't win? Why do most of us buy a Ducati? It is a combination of looks, sounds, history, performance (to a point), and a certain exclusiveness. If you could buy the bike for 25% less than the corresponding Japanese offering, with minimal servicing costs, and the rest of the biking world was buying them, would we? Don't we see ourselves as being slightly "different"? The truth is we know we are paying more for the bike and possibly running costs, but because of the above we will live with it. The fine line comes at which point we feel we are now being taken for a ride. Messing about with product line-ups and pricing WILL upset customers. We show our loyalty by buying the product and we want to see that loyalty rewarded. Fiirstly that the bike you just bought is not obsolete overnight and secondly how happy are you that the servicing costs half overnight? Do you think, great, can do lots more miles for the same costs, or I've been stitched up for the last "x" years? From my experience if I tell a client they are paying half for next year compared to last the reaction I get is you're a thieving b****r!
Like Martin says, You pee off your "old" customers and hope to attract new ones. Trouble is get the balance wrong and you lose everyone. :eek:

A lot of good points there mate.

One thing I would point out is that one of the reasons servicing costs are dropping is new manufacturing processes.

For example:- The way the company that produces the monster petrol tanks has changed.
The potential manufacturing debris that used to be present in the tank is no longer there.
Therefore the fuel filter does not need replaced and the time taken to change that filter does not need to be charged. This saves the customer money on both counts. A lot of components are subject to this type of improved process.

The way the valve seats are being manufactured these days is different to recent models. This means the valves do no seat as quickly and can be left further between services and shimming. This means more miles for your money - cheaper.

At the same time, technology pushes on with respect to everything from tyre life to bearing life and brake pad wear rates.

It's not really a case of taking the p*ss up until now. Those service jobs needed done and will always need done.
It's a case of manufacturing processes and the associated costs therein coming down and this cost benefit being passed on to the customer.

But you are right, a balance muct be reached and the message must be given across in the right way.
 
As a wee addition, it's important for the factory to retain the exclusivity but also to grow.

If we as dealers were only able to reach a certain percentage of the market place we could reach a level of saturation and growth would decline.

Reducing the servicing cost (as we all would like and have asked for) will attract more customers to the brand whilst the initial cost will still retain that exclusivity.

At the end of the day, i'm in business to make money and grow. It is important to me to attract more and more customers year on year.
 
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i would say for ktm`s having worked for a dealer, that their engine quality is not on a par with ducatis.when the duke 2 came out we had quite a few which went through pistons and barrels. the first one it happened to,we had to send it back to austria as they hadnt come across it before. by the time we had the second broken one we didnt need to send it back as they already had a few by then. saying that i dont know if that will carry on to the new twins and i certainly hope not as the rest of their engineering, design and assembly is brilliant.
but all that aside i think ktm will become a big competitor cause theyre not scared of radical designs.
if you want to know more about yamahas philosophy check the old scottish ducati sight and see my conversations with the uk gm.
 
Martin Ducati Glasgow said:
A lot of good points there mate.

One thing I would point out is that one of the reasons servicing costs are dropping is new manufacturing processes.

For example:- The way the company that produces the monster petrol tanks has changed.
The potential manufacturing debris that used to be present in the tank is no longer there.
Therefore the fuel filter does not need replaced and the time taken to change that filter does not need to be charged. This saves the customer money on both counts. A lot of components are subject to this type of improved process.

The way the valve seats are being manufactured these days is different to recent models. This means the valves do no seat as quickly and can be left further between services and shimming. This means more miles for your money - cheaper.

At the same time, technology pushes on with respect to everything from tyre life to bearing life and brake pad wear rates.

It's not really a case of taking the p*ss up until now. Those service jobs needed done and will always need done.
It's a case of manufacturing processes and the associated costs therein coming down and this cost benefit being passed on to the customer.

But you are right, a balance muct be reached and the message must be given across in the right way.
Martin, sorry if I inferred you were taking the p*ss. That was NOT what I meant, merely Ducati ownership and surrounding costs are all "perceived" either by owners or or prospective owners. As you say and I was getting at, it is getting the message over and striking the right balance. :)
 
Martin Ducati Glasgow said:
As a wee addition, it's important for the factory to retain the exclusivity but also to grow.

If we as dealers were only able to reach a certain percentage of the market place we could reach a level of saturation and growth would decline.

Reducing the servicing cost (as we all would like and have asked for) will attract more customers to the brand whilst the initial cost will still retain that exclusivity.

At the end of the day, i'm in business to make money and grow. It is important to me to attract more and more customers year on year.
Martin, again I fully agree. The problem you have is that Ducati is a "niche" market. You want to expand your business as I want to grow mine, but a "niche" market by it's nature will never be mainstream. Ducati cannot remain a "niche" player if they try to become all things to all men (and women!). As said before, stick to what they are good at and known for. Back to that old balancing act again! Anyway, you have the whole of Scotland to yourself just now so make hay etc. I'm sure you will continue to grow and we all hope you do!:D
ps can I say I start to worry when people tell me I am making sense. :o
 
weeian said:
Geez jon, good topic, ill read this tomorow when i can think clearly, looks interesting tho.

/ian
what makes you think you will start thinking clearly tomorrow,youve never been able to so far:lol2: :lol2:
 
239desmo said:
Martin, sorry if I inferred you were taking the p*ss. That was NOT what I meant, merely Ducati ownership and surrounding costs are all "perceived" either by owners or or prospective owners. As you say and I was getting at, it is getting the message over and striking the right balance. :)

No worries at all mate, absolutely no apology required, I knew what you meant and it's a really vaild point!:)

Customers might (and most probably will) think exactly that - that we (dealers) have been taking the p*ss up until now.

I'm sure from now on i'll be having lots of conversations around the topics of this thread.
The fantastic thing about this site is that it gets me thinking about these potential issues before they arise on the showroom floor. Folk on here have generally got their finger on the pulse with respects to the latest goings on around Ducati and it's good to get a lot of differing viewpoints.

It's great to have an intelligent debate with people who are good customers, supporters of the brand and also able to articulate their concerns in a way that we can get to the real issues without any of the useless bickering we have seen on other sites, it is far more constructive.

Honestly, it means i'll be able to offer a better service to our customers knowing the concerns and worries they are facing from their point of view.
As a dealer it can be quite easy to get blinkered into following the same course of action day in - day out.
With these kinds of debates it helps me adjust to and learn new approaches, it really is invaluable.

Any and all feedback is great and much appreciated.

Mart:D
 
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