Ducati going forward?

Freak

Is it still summer?
Thought I'd start a bit of a debate and see what people think about Ducati's current model line up going forward and looking at the past and seeing if we all think it's a good or a bad plan?

My reasoning is that I've been thinking about this for a few days and even though I have limited knowledge of the brand as a whole and have only owned 3 Ducati's so far all in the last 5-6 years maybe there are people here in fact I am sure there are who would have a far better knowledge and wider understanding of Ducati's branding and models and evolution\revolution of their range and their marketing structure.

I doubt anyone would disagree that the 916 wasn't an instant classic and opened my eyes to the brand back when it was launched, plus the Foggy factor made the bike an instant classic here and abroad and Ducati did what they do best by evolving the bike over nearly 10 years into the 998 Final Edition. If you break this down the 916-998 line had many changes over the years but still maintained the same lines (for the most part) and most of the components also this is great from a profitability point of view as they're just producing effectively the same parts for nearly 10 years.

The problem then arises that when someone within Ducati decided that the 998 was no longer competitive in WSB and sales were dwindling for the old design something new and exciting had to come along, in my eyes whatever that was was never going to be better than the 916 it cannot be not to have survived that long and sure enough the 999 wasn't well received as I completely expected and for the purists it still isn't, maybe they find it hard to believe that actually the 999 is a better bike maybe not a looker but it is a better bike.

If Ducati had taken a leaf out of the Japanese bike manufacturers books then non of this would of happened, although I doubt Ducati as a brand as big enough to replace a model every two/three years. An example would be the R1 originally released in 1998 and I think we're on our 4th maybe 5th incarnation in 8 years now with a new model coming in 2007 also. Look as say Kawasaki with the ZX-10R the original looked stunning but the current (new) model IMO doesn't look 1/2 as good with those "not quite underseat pipes" it's probably a better bike on the whole but I wouldn't imagine they're sold as many as the Mk1, but they'll just learn from this and quickly make changes to the next model.

Anyway back to Ducati, the 1098 looms and will be viewed by the public for the first time in 2 months at the Milan show, spy shots and artists impressions are all over the web and various magazine covers, single sided swingarm possibly 916 styled lights, twin exhausts but the remainder looks like a 999, no doubt the bike will be a stonker but my view is they have bowed to public opinion and pressure plus they've seen how successful the sports classics have been since they arrived which must of affected the styling queues somewhat. To me this is a step backwards rather than pushing the design envelope they've simply gone back to proven designs from what I can see which will please the purists maybe but will this harm the brand/resale for current owners going forward?

I recall back in July 2004 Ducati launched the 2005 999/749 range at Laguna Seca WSB with the new nosecone and all models then got the aluminium swingarm, UK dealers couldn't sell 04 bikes for the want of trying after that and a meeting was held by Ducati UK and all the Ducati dealers and discounts were given for the 04 models after this, I'm sure people who bought a new bike at the beginning of 2004 weren't best pleased and maybe made them think twice about buying another.

Look at "R" owners a few years ago limmited numbers were made each year, now Ducati seem to have changed this stance also, they'll sell as many R's as they can now. This also appears to be happening with the Desmosedici project too according to last weeks MCN, claiming orders for over 700 units currently when initially they were stating 3-400 units.

I know it's a business at the end of the day and if someone ordered several 100 units you'd do your best to fulfil that order and increase profits but potential customers willing to spend that kind of money would want it to remain exclusive I'm sure to retain it's value down the line, look at MV in this example they're a small, very small company and the latest F4 1000 is available in several incarnations, some costing around £30,000 but they're producing something like 50 of these models which will keep residuals high one would hope.

Ducati on the other hand have listened to their customers/potential customers also lets not forget this they have promised up to 50% less servicing costs on 2007 models but most of the 2007 range is still based on bikes already available so why can this not filter down to older models? Plus does that hit the values of 2nd hand (pre 2007 models) as potential buyers will see what a 2006 bike costs to service over a 2007 model.

This isn't a whinge by any stretch of the imagination I'm just curious to try and understand Ducati's marketting strategy and what the ducatisti here think also, comments/views more than welcome.
 
Freak said:
comments/views more than welcome.

I think you should do more work or finish early and clean my car for me as you clearly have too much time on your hands ;)


Interesting post though.
 
Freak said:
Thought I'd start a bit of a debate and see what people think about Ducati's current model line up going forward and looking at the past and seeing if we all think it's a good or a bad plan?

My reasoning is that I've been thinking about this for a few days and even though I have limited knowledge of the brand as a whole and have only owned 3 Ducati's so far all in the last 5-6 years maybe there are people here in fact I am sure there are who would have a far better knowledge and wider understanding of Ducati's branding and models and evolution\revolution of their range and their marketing structure.

I doubt anyone would disagree that the 916 wasn't an instant classic and opened my eyes to the brand back when it was launched, plus the Foggy factor made the bike an instant classic here and abroad and Ducati did what they do best by evolving the bike over nearly 10 years into the 998 Final Edition. If you break this down the 916-998 line had many changes over the years but still maintained the same lines (for the most part) and most of the components also this is great from a profitability point of view as they're just producing effectively the same parts for nearly 10 years.

The problem then arises that when someone within Ducati decided that the 998 was no longer competitive in WSB and sales were dwindling for the old design something new and exciting had to come along, in my eyes whatever that was was never going to be better than the 916 it cannot be not to have survived that long and sure enough the 999 wasn't well received as I completely expected and for the purists it still isn't, maybe they find it hard to believe that actually the 999 is a better bike maybe not a looker but it is a better bike.

If Ducati had taken a leaf out of the Japanese bike manufacturers books then non of this would of happened, although I doubt Ducati as a brand as big enough to replace a model every two/three years. An example would be the R1 originally released in 1998 and I think we're on our 4th maybe 5th incarnation in 8 years now with a new model coming in 2007 also. Look as say Kawasaki with the ZX-10R the original looked stunning but the current (new) model IMO doesn't look 1/2 as good with those "not quite underseat pipes" it's probably a better bike on the whole but I wouldn't imagine they're sold as many as the Mk1, but they'll just learn from this and quickly make changes to the next model.

Anyway back to Ducati, the 1098 looms and will be viewed by the public for the first time in 2 months at the Milan show, spy shots and artists impressions are all over the web and various magazine covers, single sided swingarm possibly 916 styled lights, twin exhausts but the remainder looks like a 999, no doubt the bike will be a stonker but my view is they have bowed to public opinion and pressure plus they've seen how successful the sports classics have been since they arrived which must of affected the styling queues somewhat. To me this is a step backwards rather than pushing the design envelope they've simply gone back to proven designs from what I can see which will please the purists maybe but will this harm the brand/resale for current owners going forward?

I recall back in July 2004 Ducati launched the 2005 999/749 range at Laguna Seca WSB with the new nosecone and all models then got the aluminium swingarm, UK dealers couldn't sell 04 bikes for the want of trying after that and a meeting was held by Ducati UK and all the Ducati dealers and discounts were given for the 04 models after this, I'm sure people who bought a new bike at the beginning of 2004 weren't best pleased and maybe made them think twice about buying another.

Look at "R" owners a few years ago limmited numbers were made each year, now Ducati seem to have changed this stance also, they'll sell as many R's as they can now. This also appears to be happening with the Desmosedici project too according to last weeks MCN, claiming orders for over 700 units currently when initially they were stating 3-400 units.

I know it's a business at the end of the day and if someone ordered several 100 units you'd do your best to fulfil that order and increase profits but potential customers willing to spend that kind of money would want it to remain exclusive I'm sure to retain it's value down the line, look at MV in this example they're a small, very small company and the latest F4 1000 is available in several incarnations, some costing around £30,000 but they're producing something like 50 of these models which will keep residuals high one would hope.

Ducati on the other hand have listened to their customers/potential customers also lets not forget this they have promised up to 50% less servicing costs on 2007 models but most of the 2007 range is still based on bikes already available so why can this not filter down to older models? Plus does that hit the values of 2nd hand (pre 2007 models) as potential buyers will see what a 2006 bike costs to service over a 2007 model.

This isn't a whinge by any stretch of the imagination I'm just curious to try and understand Ducati's marketting strategy and what the ducatisti here think also, comments/views more than welcome.
I suspect you are in the majority failing to understand the company's strategy.
I may not be typical but I have an ageing 748 which should be replaced. But with what? 749/999 is slowly growing on me but not enough I want to spend the money on a new one. Monster? Couple of years ago I thought the S2R 800 would be the answer. Before I could do anything the 1000 model was announced. Then we have the S4R, S4RS all following close on the heels. How many variations of a monster do you need? I don't want to buy a bike that is obsolete before the PDI is completed. The new sport range etc? Apart from the fact that IMO it is a poor imitation of the originals there is a question of having bought the bike you then have to spend another grand on an exhaust that doesnt look like a couple of drain pipes stuck on the side. Before you know it your £7500 bike becomes nearer £9k. Now I see dealers advertising higher bars just to make the riding position tolerable. If I want sore wrists I'll stick with what I have! I may be way off the mark but I can't help thinking a lot of the problem lies with the present chief designer. Surely we buy Ducati as much for the style as anything? If it was down to outright performance would we not go and buy the latest Japanese missile? That's my tuppence worth. :(
 
I can see this topic is going to run and run John. I think we were all there the day the 916 was uncovered and all our jaws dropped. Until then Ducati was classed as another unreliable Italian manufacturer.

My own opinion is that they should of evolved the 916 as say Porsche have.
The main complaints of the 916 series was it was a small jockey machine and that anyone over 5' 9 was knackered. The 999 brought with it adjustable pegs, seat etc and made it more universally fitting to the real world of bikers who are over 5' 9.

The Monster has been Ducatis most successful model and it seems to me it just keeps getting better.

Ducati have made some in roads into customer feedback with the likes of internet questionnaires on the New Supermotard and listening to the prices of servicing etc.

Lets ask ourselves a question and answer it truthfully, how many of us need 160bhp or more in the real world. There are very few of us who can really ride any of todays superbikes to their full potential.
When do we think the bhp war will end will we ever see a 250+bhp bike on the road ?

There has been noises just recently from Ducati that they are listening and considering what the customer thinks. At the end of the day there are a lot of us that have owned more than one Ducati and we class ourselves as "Ducatist", those are the people who Ducati need to aim at and listen to, it has become for a lot of us a life style, hey we are all on a Ducati website arent we.
If they pick up new customers along the way its a bonus.

Lets not forget it was only a few years ago Ducati was on the brink before The Texas Pacific Group stepped in and bailed them out. If we look at what has been acheived since then it's massive. The 999 series could of been the nail in the coffin and if you think about say Suzuki making a duffer they would of binned it after a year or two and moved on before it was their downfall....!!!!!

I really hope the new bike succeeds and that coupled with the change in the racing rules we could all be looking at a bright new future. I wish them luck either way.
 
obviously your comments on abilities to ride 160bhp+ bikes didnt apply to me, as having owned several powerful lamnbrettas, i can handle any sort of power........... but a lot of what you say is right.i fell in love with ducatis through the engine noise, more than the looks.i love the 916 range but always thought the arse end was just a copy of the honda, with those horrible tail lights. i actually liked the 999 when it came out and had the money to buy one but foolishly spent the money on a new car for the wife ( what was i thinking).
I think if ducati want to progress they should still hold onto key design aspects of their earlier models, look at how succesful that has been for aston martin.it means they have an easily recognisible heritage which sets them aside from lesser bikes. i must admit the number of monsters is to me a bit over done, but despite what the magazines say about it being dated compared to newer bikes, i think that is exactly what attracts people to them . ducati are in the enviable position of having a history to trade on, even tho its not as long as some might think,but so long as they keep it in mind while they continue to bring out new machines i think theyll do well
 
The BHP war is another one though isn't it, thus why Ducati changed their sales tactics a year or two ago, quoting dry weight and HP at the crank to bring them more in line with the IL4 brigade.

We all know that Ducati's are more about "feel" that outright power but power sells bikes, next years GSXR1000 K7 is 3hp up on the K6 do you need that 3hp? would you notice it? They have to increase it to keep sales ticking over.

I'm really interested to see the hypermotard it's the only new Ducati that really does tick the boxes at the moment, problem is it's already missed me as a potential sale after buying the KTM which does everything that can really. The Hypermotard is a better looking bike but we know it will be expensive and parts/servicing could be it's downfall in that niché market
 
Wow............anything less than an essay is gonna fall short.

160 BHP, 250 BHP, it doesn't matter that its not needed, customers just want it. :D

If Ducati had brought out a design for a road bike very similar in looks to the MotoGP bike as the 916/--/998 replacement I suspect jaws would have dropped again in 2003, maybe not, it didn't happen.

As to newer bikes being "Better" thats a Subjective measure if you take a holistic view. "Better" what?

Better Handling, better looks, better performance, better value, better riding position,............discussion continue.

Sure I didn't like the looks of the 999 when it came out but kinda got used to it.
As a 998r owner (1 of 700?) I really couldn't see what was better for me in the new design. A decison taken not as result of being a luddite but taking a personal view on what the whole package offered to me for my hard earned.

I like what I like is one way of putting it, both old and new.

If the cash was there I'd be having a Road going V4 Sedici road bike, good looks and more power that I don't need but want:D

An S4RS monster is another bike I'd love to own, again maybe more power than I need but I like the looks, and the intangible feelgood factor riding one gives me based on just fews miles test ride.

Ray.
 
Ray you say you'd have a V4 if you had the cash, but would you knowing full well that Ducati now plan to build more than double what they stated they would only a few months ago?

Would you willingly take that hit on depreciation? We could compare that back to your Evo say, great fun but depreciation is astronomical it's the only reason bar service costs I've never bought one.

As for the 999 being better, try one I know a few people who have, me included and most if not all are of the same opinion
 
Freak said:
Ray you say you'd have a V4 if you had the cash, but would you knowing full well that Ducati now plan to build more than double what they stated they would only a few months ago?

Would you willingly take that hit on depreciation? We could compare that back to your Evo say, great fun but depreciation is astronomical it's the only reason bar service costs I've never bought one.

As for the 999 being better, try one I know a few people who have, me included and most if not all are of the same opinion
To me you buy the Desmosedici because you can - it has no relevance to road riding and anyone who can afford one will not worry about the depreciation anyway. They will do one of two things (probably both) a. ride it a bit and cosset it a lot b. treat it as a future investment. The Flat Red is lively looking enough for anyone at the mo, think that it's really nice. The Sports range will do and the Multis etc will continue. Evolution not revolution is the current image I reckon.
 
The trouble with buying a desmosedici as an investment is that is it is not if the factory up the production figures dramatically as mentioned before. Look at the Hailwood evo? Many were bought and put in the living room to look at as they were a cast iron investment. Well they weren't and you can pick one up for a lot less than the original price with almost zero miles on the clock. Everything becomes collectable if you hold onto it long enough. But if you were spending £35k on a bike as an investment would you buy a new bike of any make?
 
If money was no object Yeah I'd have a new sedici and not worry about the depreciation. A More canny way is to see what happens when/if a few become available secondhand.

Bought the 998 a year old so the 1st owner had taken the 4K hit:eek:

The Evo was second hand as well, I know full well I'm gonna take a hit on on that thing if I can sell it at all:(

Bought a new 996 in '99 and it halved in value in just over 3 years, I Guess you have to accept that sort of thing but I agree 100% that it can be annoying when you take the view that the manufacturer doen't help matters.

I try to look at other stuff to get a sense of proportion, depreciation is a fact of life some many purchases:(

Buy a Mondeo new out of necesssity to get around and it shed cash like a money tree in Autumn, 50, 60, 70% in just three years??
Maybe we accept that for stuff we must have but not for the Boys toys

The depreciation thing is a value judgement, part of the cost to own and Enjoy the Bike, car or whatever.

You can make it work for you, buy something a year old that depreciates badly and you save a packet on the new price that was maybe out of reach? You then have to accept it might be worth naff all in a few more years time.

Maybe depreciation is a factor for some buyers maybe not, some might even think about it when buying.

I've been offered a test ride on a 999 a good few times at Ducati Leeds, just never got round to it and DUK didn't have one at Cadwell they would let me try. I really ought to try one, It's crossed my mind that it might never happen, if its superceeded:( (Bit like saying to me four year old Q "but how do ya know ya wont like the taste it if you wont try it" at meal time:) A. but I don't like the colour):confused:

Don't get me wrong about the "better" thang, one persons better is anothers backward step, maybe I was wrong about the holistic/package thing, Sometimes even if something functions better other factors still stop the buyer going for the Functionally better, maybe looks, maybe price etc.

Park a 998 next to a 999 and my personal choice would be the 998, based purely on looks, its what drew me to Ducati years ago. Others would go for the 999 with perfectly good reasons for their choice.

Maybe my personal buying decision is weighted towards form rather than function with a bit of total cost to own thrown in??:)

Ducati certainly make a few quid out of the "Brand" image, that really took off when TPG got invloved, maybe they saw Ducati as an Sportsbike orientated Brand that was under selling itself.

At the end of the day TPG were in it to make money, it that meant upsetting a few existing customers then so be it?? Again don't get me wrong TPG did some good stuff at Ducati, investment in quality control for one. Maybe now there will be a new direction.


Ray
 
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...blimey, it's taken me ages to read thru all these postings - heavy stuff!!!

I think I'll stay in my little time-warp where Ducatis are expensive, rare & exotic beasts which are not for the masses or faint of heart, where 40mm Del'ortos & Verlicchis are the order of the day, where the widest rear tyres are 130s and almost every Ducati available is a classic (with the odd exception - Pantah TLs and XLs!)

I worked with Ducatis during their transition phase when they went from being likened to the above description to trinkets of fashion. I hated what I was experiencing; seeing these wonderful machines that evoke so much emotion in us, becoming the 'gotta have' thing with the city slickers.

I've also experienced this same thing with 911 owners; anything other than an air-cooled flat six is crap and the 996 & 997 ranges are products of the Devil himself. This is of cause crap, they are great vehicles as are modern Ducatis, but as long as fashion continues to dictate the market we will continue to see bikes come and go and either succeed or flop!!

My personaly opinion is that the MV Agusta was to be the successor to the 916; the Tamburini family lines are obvious - but of cause we all know what happened back then with the Castiglioni brothers dumping the Ducati marque!!

But hey, what do I know, I don't even own a proper Ducati - I made mine out of sticky back plastic and used fairy-liquid bottles ;)
 
Gotta admit i'm a real lover of the 916 look, and several magazine articles recently have listed it as the best bike ever.

I have ridden the 999 and although many people including the press say its a better bike to ride, personally i don't agree. I still think it looks hideous (actually the black one wasn't too bad). Sorry to offend anyone, but the same comment applies to an awfull lot of Jap bikes as well.

Comments have been raised that the 916 is no good for larger folk. I'm 6' 3" and admittedly made a few changes to my 996 but i find it perfectly acceptable for more than a 100 mile Sunday blast. Admittedly i've made a few simple changes, namely heli bars, higher screen and a tecnosel seat which have transformed it for me.

I agree with a previous comment about developing the 916 range in the same way that Porsche have developed the 911 over several decades. Constant refinement and development so that it improves like a good wine, but is still identifiable.

Sport classics don't do a lot for me, but can appreciate the appeal.

Monsters are still nice and the S4R is really nice.

Multistrada's are really underated and a real fun versatile bike.

The Hypermotard is pure sex, and i'm sure will be fun to ride as well.

WIsh i had the money for a 'sedici.........dream on of winninmg the lottery.

The new 1098 looks interesting, defo a step in the right direction, but want to see one in the flesh rather than 'spy' pics of bikes covered in gaffa tape.

From Ducati's point of view, the $64,000 question is would i buy a 1098?

Not sure without seeing it in the flesh, but the biggest problem is that i've got very attatched to the 996R, its very special to me and its something i've grown attatched to and would like to keep for a long time, so a 1098 would have to be something additional. Justifying that would take some doing my bike shave got to fulfill various different roles, i.e. purely off road,
do it all road/off road/commuter/hack/tourer etc,
and the sports bike/vision of beauty/dream bike.

I'll watch the 1098 with great interest and look forward to riding it, if it ticks all the boxes then the 996 may go up for sale, but i'd hate to do that.

Going back to the question of Ducati's marketing. Its a hard market out there at the moment in bike sales, especially for a premium product competeing with the more mass market Jap stuff, but i feel Ducati are responding well at the moment with changes a foot, not just in the model development but also cost of ownership etc. Good luck to them, especially as they have the likes of KTM as an up and coming manufacturer (who nearly went bust just over a decade ago, and BMW are pulling their corporate motorcycle finger out to replace some of the turgid poo they've produced.

Bloody good luck to Ducati.
 
Jeeez, serious post here folks! Right, rolling up my sleeves!

I've just come back from a dealer meeting last week at HQ in Milton Keynes.

To be honest I have never felt such a positive atmosphere between all the dealers and DucUK as I did last week, I am truly excited about next year and i'm not the only one.

The Hypermotard has had over 15,000 questionnaires filled out online. Ducati are hoping and expecting this bike to be as big a hit as the Monster range. To a company that sells 40,000 bikes a year, that is a HUGE number.
It is apparently so small, incredibly nimble with the power to match. The public love the looks.
The test rig spied in all of the shots we have seen spotted around the net is NOT the final design, they are trying as hard as possible to make the bike look the same as the initial pics we have all seen.
As to cost, I know what it's very likely to be, although cannot confirm anything and trust me, it's very keenly priced!:)
At the same time it will follow the company stance for 07 of being up to 50% cheaper to service.
This is no nonsense, the factory have slashed servicing costs for 07 bikes, i'm delighted.

This bike has got real success written all over it.

The Monster range has slimmed down with less variants on each model and is getting and better year on year.
It offers a true range of similar looking bikes with a power and price to meet almost everyones requirements for budget and power.
No sales pitch - this is just a fact £4,995 - £9,495. 5 different levels
What better way to get into a pedigree machine that is respected and can still cut it with the best of the rest.
They have worked well for the factory and the factory don't want to change them. Like the 911, small tweeks are whats required to evolve that model not revolutionary remakes. Not yet anyway.

The Desmodsedici is a bit unexpected for the factory as it they have had so many advance orders. I don't know how many are going to be built in total but I would expect no more than 50 to reach our shores next year. The UK has 100 advance orders at this point.
Demand globally is sky high and supply will not fulfill. This is a fantastic position for prospective owners of this machine. Residuals should stay so strong. No dealers will have these as stock. No one will be discounting these or selling em cheap at the end of the season, why would they??
This is the flagship model. What other manufacturer can boast a machine like this at the top of the tree?

Even when the MH900e was sold on the internet. 2000 global units were supplied. I've only ever seen 2 in my life and i'm a dealer!! Even if the factory does build 1000 of the 'Sedici. I doubt they will be seen often on the roads, lose their appeal or suffer heavy depreciation. They are just going to be SO rare and there is already a two year waiting list!!!:eek: This is also great news for residuals!

The Multistrada 1100 is an improvement on a machine that was fantastic in the first place. It has already been receiving great press and it will only get better. This bike is now widely accepted and although it's taken a while for people to get to grips with the looks they sell well and are a good player in the market.

The Sport Classics This is almost a new genre and people are growing to it very quickly. A good number of the manufacturers are warming to the idea. They took off this year and i'm sure will be even better next year.

The 1098 Well we are all very excited about this bike and I cant divulge even the very small amount I know to date. And no I haven't seen the pics yet!!:D

Truth is, whether you like the 999 or not, it's a better bike than the 998 in every way, (lets leave looks out for a moment). Easier / better handling, cheaper to service, comfier, faster, more powerful, better torque and so on. These are all the things the public wanted. The factory gave these but let some people down in the looks department. To me they had two choices 1) redo the 916 in a similar form or 2) go completely to the otherside and create a new animal.
The purists out there will never see past the 916 design, that to me is a bit of a shame because they are missing out on a really beautiful riding experience on a superior bike!:( Everything the factory learned with the various guises the 916 came in over 10 years, was put into the 999.

But get this: - The product life of that design was never intended or expected to be 10+ years. It is fantastic for all of us that it was, it catapulted Ducati to become a real time major player but I doubt it will ever happen again for ANY bike manufacturer.
The 916 is a true classic piece of art and a beautiful machine but time does march on. They just couldn't build them forever, a new bike was needed.
I've ridden just about every Ducati built since the late eighties and the 999 series is the best by far and i'm guessing we're not surprised!

We have sold 4 or 5 times more Superbikes than we have EVER sold in this shop this year. Sure there is a 0% deal on but thats not the whole story. People love this design and love riding the bike even more. It has been our best selling Superbike year on year, including the 998.

The 999 didn't meet the expectations we all had. Of course the factory know that. They are listening, watching and are trying to keep the majority happy. This, i'm positive will be evident in the new design. There will always be those who disagree however.

The 1098 is going to be even better again. Remember the 999 has been with us for 4 years now. That in itself is a long time as a product life in this business.
The factory has just has a large chunk of long-term investment. This bike is going to be barnstorming, be under no illusions. Big things are on the horizons!
The brand has never been stronger, the orders for the Desmosedici have prooved there are customers out there willing to spend the money on a bike built by the factory - no matter how much it may cost.

I hear and read about depreciation all the time. Unfortunately when you buy anything these days TV, microwave, cars, vans, boats, mobile phones and much, much more. We all lose money, no one likes it, it's the way of the world unfortuantely. Technology is moving so fast in every area, it's not long until something gets superceded. We accept it elswhere in life without question, why would our motorcycles come under such a different banner??
It's because we have such a soft spot for them (especially Ducati) more than almost any other product. It is a blight on our machine if suddenly it is not worth what we expected!:(

We buy Ducati because they are special, different to the rest and have a feel that in my opinion you just cannot find with any other bike out there. The componentry and build quality has never been better ............ sounding like a salesman now!!;)

Anyway, i'm excited, never more than now. It is a bright future, brighter than we have seen for at least the last 4 - 5 years i'm sure.

Sorry this post is so long but I had a lot to say!:)

Mart

P.S. Phew - off to bed!!:D
 
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I've read all the above and it took a long time too. I find myself agreeing with many aspects for and against the new direction, although Martin is obviously very enthusiastic about Ducati's future.
But what I'd like to know is where do the Sport Tourers figure in all this?
Ducati seem to have given up on this side of the market. When I come to replace my ST4s in 3 or 4 years I want a proper 4V testastretta engined bike not a 3 valve compromise and I don't care how good they say it is!
How many ST owners will just move to a VFR or a Triumph Sprint ST?
 
It's been said to me before that the ST3 is a compromise, I have always been surprised to hear this. I don't know if you have ridden it Derek but it's good............ Really good. And yes of course i'm bias but I do honestly mean it!;)

Especially the S model. Higher spec than the 4S with an arguably more versatile engine with better wind protection!

I really don't know where it places in the future of Ducati, i'm just surprised it doesn't sell far more units than it does. I mean you just have to read the latest reviews about build quality and comparisons between it and other Sport Tourers. Results are generally up on both VFR and Trumpet ST

I honestly don't know if they have given up on that side of the market but they may have realised there are other places they can make a far more significant impact. But as I say, I really don't know!

I for one hope it remains in the family, it's a capable machine. I rode one to RTL this year. If new customers didn't believe all the bull about reliabilty issues and fragility, it may be more widely accepted.

Mart
 
Martin Ducati Glasgow said:
Jeeez, serious post here folks! Right, rolling up my sleeves!

I've just come back from a dealer meeting last week at HQ in Milton Keynes.

I'm so sorry that you had to go to Milton Keynes Mart, I worked in MK for many years and lived 6 miles away from the place. Needless to say, I will never be going there again!!! :)
 
ProjectImola004 said:
I'm so sorry that you had to go to Milton Keynes Mart, I worked in MK for many years and lived 6 miles away from the place. Needless to say, I will never be going there again!!! :)

I got caught by the cops having a p!ss in Milton Keynes once.
Thats all ive got to say. :o :o
 
...what the bleedin' 'ek were you doin' there mate?

Its such a dive - ghettoville with a massive divide between rich and poor and they are kept well apart. Rising crime rate etc

- standard UK city really then eh!

...sorry this has nothing to do with Ducati going forward - sorry Jon.
 
Martin Ducati Glasgow said:
It's been said to me before that the ST3 is a compromise, I have always been surprised to hear this. I don't know if you have ridden it Derek but it's good............ Really good. And yes of course i'm bias but I do honestly mean it!;)

Especially the S model. Higher spec than the 4S with an arguably more versatile engine with better wind protection!

I really don't know where it places in the future of Ducati, i'm just surprised it doesn't sell far more units than it does. I mean you just have to read the latest reviews about build quality and comparisons between it and other Sport Tourers. Results are generally up on both VFR and Trumpet ST

I honestly don't know if they have given up on that side of the market but they may have realised there are other places they can make a far more significant impact. But as I say, I really don't know!

I for one hope it remains in the family, it's a capable machine. I rode one to RTL this year. If new customers didn't believe all the bull about reliabilty issues and fragility, it may be more widely accepted.

Mart

i think its down to the perception of Ducati's and high mileage, the 2 don't go together :( its hard enough to sell a Ducati with 5000 miles on never mind the mileage an ST or mts owner can do. Add in the high servicing costs if you do big mileage ( imagine 2 or 3 services every year :eek:) compare that to a VFR or Sprint servicing costs in the same mileage and you'd have to really want a Ducati even if it is the better bike.

The multi suffers the same fate, i want to keep mine but know it's going to cost me a lot to do so and with good v twins like the SM950 around its going to be a tough call next year. maybe the reason Ducati are now focusing on the lower mileage SBK/ sport classics is because they accept they can't win in the higher mileage products :(
 
I think it would be a great shame if Ducati got shot of the ST range. However, having owned an ST2, it was no more expensive to run than the SS range. Two valves - that was the difference. 4 valvers are always gonna be more expensive to run. And it was no less long-legged than any VFR or the like. Why would you need a Testa engined ST?

(this is of cause only my opinion having clocked up 12,000 completely trouble free miles in 4 months commuting on my ST2 back in 2001)


I'm sure Gizmo, Lily and Freak will agree, on roads like we were thrashing along the other Friday, 130, 140 150 + hp is just not needed.


...what you need is a Guzzi Cali!!!!!! :) ;)

hey, just trying to lighten up this 'heavy' thread!
 
Sorry to all the 'purists' but I think the 749 is brilliant. I've just got back from a great run up to Hawes and after one years ownership I couldn't think of any bike that would have been better. Ok there may be a bike that could have gone quicker ('Better late and alive than dead on arrival'), there may be a bike that would have been more comfortable but after many years riding Jap bikes there isn't one that could touch the 749 tonight for thr total pleasure. Oh God do I need to get a life !
 
Gizmo said:
i think its down to the perception of Ducati's and high mileage, the 2 don't go together :( its hard enough to sell a Ducati with 5000 miles on never mind the mileage an ST or mts owner can do. Add in the high servicing costs if you do big mileage ( imagine 2 or 3 services every year :eek:) compare that to a VFR or Sprint servicing costs in the same mileage and you'd have to really want a Ducati even if it is the better bike.

The multi suffers the same fate, i want to keep mine but know it's going to cost me a lot to do so and with good v twins like the SM950 around its going to be a tough call next year. maybe the reason Ducati are now focusing on the lower mileage SBK/ sport classics is because they accept they can't win in the higher mileage products :(

I don't know about this comparison Gizmo. The VFR gets serviced every 4000 miles in comparison to the ST3S 6000 miles. In say 16,000 miles thats four services against two with 2 thousand miles still in hand.

If the VFR costs say an average of £250+ to service and knowing the 16,000 mile service is £550 - £600 on the VFR (new V-tec). That works our at minimum of £1200.

The equivalent mileage on the ST3S is gonna cost you £600 ish (parts and labour). Even if you included the £18,000 mile service you'll have £100 - £150change from a grand!!

Even if i'm wrong about the VFR prices (say £400 too expensive and it's £800 for 16K miles servicing), to me, for what it offers and what it is made of, the ST3S (at roughly £900 for that mileage) still doesn't seem like a "way too" expensive bike to live with or buy!!!!
It's going to lose money at roughly the same rate initially but will probably hold a marginally better residual.

And at the very least you can be sure of being a bit different to the norm!

I don't think the reality of service costs is the issue.

(can't comment on Triumph!)

Ducati are dramatically bringing down service costs across the range, soon it won't be nearly as much talked about.

I still think it unfounded reliabilty perception :(

Mart
 
2 ongoing thoughts are:
1. Freak wanted to start "a bit of a debate". This isn't a bit of a debate it could run till Xmas! Result! :D
2. Martin was going to bed 3 hours ago and didn't. Probably couldn't sleep from typist's cramp! :lol2:
 
On the VFR vs ST front, MArtin is right about the big expensive 16,000 mile service on the v-tec VFR, which IMHO is a far inferior bike to all the previous VFR's anyway.

I've had 3 different models of VFR's (and a Triumph Sprint ST) and an ST4 and ST4s. Both the Ducs knock spots of all VFR varients.

A few more enlightened members of the press are finally catching on to how good the ST3 is against the competition, and the ST4s was streets ahead of the VFR's.

The biggest problem is the general publics perception of reliability and cost of ownership (which of course Ducati are trying to address) which is a shame coz my 5 Ducati's have all done quite a few miles with no more problems than other bikes i've, and far better than the 3 Triumphs i've had.
 
BDG said:
The biggest problem is the general publics perception of reliability and cost of ownership (which of course Ducati are trying to address) which is a shame coz my 5 Ducati's have all done quite a few miles with no more problems than other bikes i've, and far better than the 3 Triumphs i've had.

yeas, sorry i didn't make it clear, its the public perception of running costs not the actual costs. Also the reluctance to buy high mileage Ducati's, its seen as ok to buy a second hand vfr or bmw with 20,000 miles on, try moving a Ducati with that mileage!!
 
Gizmo said:
yeas, sorry i didn't make it clear, its the public perception of running costs not the actual costs. Also the reluctance to buy high mileage Ducati's, its seen as ok to buy a second hand vfr or bmw with 20,000 miles on, try moving a Ducati with that mileage!!

BDG,

Looks like we're gonna be lumbered then:D


If I believed others I'd have never bought a Ducati in the first place, the press were bleating on about the crap riding position, heavy on the wrists, no good for anything more than a sunday morning blast.

I'd also agree with the servicing costs, look at the total costs over a period of time and they are no worse that similar categories of Jappy stuff. The press still beat on about the costs so prospective customers stay away.

Ducati is seen as a premium brand, maybe thats why the Sedici orders are at unexpected levels, maybe its because its the 1st Moto GP rep of the modern era.
£500 branded suitcases in Harvey Nicks and the like, pens and other stuff licensed are raking in the Euros for Ducati it all helps the boat stay afloat.

Can't wait to see a 1098.


Ray.
 
I'm glad Martin has replied as it shows what Ducati UK are thinking, but and there's always a but ;) it doesn't answer the questions of current bikes as I asked earlier if Joe Public buys say a 2006 bike and then in 2007 the same bike, or same engine etc is 50% cheaper to service would he be happy? That must hit depreciation for a potential buyer everyone would rather have 1/2 price servicing, 2 year warranty etc probably over a discounted bike. Works great for Ducati sales but hits current customers hard and no one either seems to pick up on this or care.

The Hypermotard is a great looking bike, but to make it competitively priced it's got to be below 8K with pipes and have it's first service thrown in for free to compete, parts/bodywork need to be cheap as chips also to compete with it's direct opposition, I honestly can't imagine the seat unit plastics or side panels would be £60 or £40 repesctively comparing this to it's opposition? Then servicing £150 per service? It's a tough market to get into for sure but the bike is nice and it will sell to the Ducatisti.

Finally the Desmo, yes they can sell 1000's of them but I would guess most buyers want one because of what it stands for the engineering and the rareriety, 3-400 bikes is fairly rare but over 1000? It'll make the 996R, 998R, Bayliss/Bostrom Reps, FE, Matrix, 748R, Senna's a rarer buy then....
 
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