WSB weight limit reduced

Gizmo

Gizmo

Forum Geek
As per usual as soon as they arent dominating Ducati get a rule change, not content with 200 cc advantage they now have minimum weights reducing despite todays results!

http://www.crash.net/world+superbikes/news/159803/1/fim_agree_twin-cylinder_weight_reduction.html

IMHO It does nowt for their image when they resort to doing this, the japanese, Aprilia and BM have to improve bikes without being able to do change rules, its what development is. At least they'll be restrained by the homolgation limit increase which prevents more of the mid 90's specials they used to roll out mid season.

Oh well i was never a fan of WSB anyway, will stick with MGP where rules are rules and not geared around 1 factory :mad:

Rant over
 
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Nicely balanced post Micheal:cool:

But I have to agree, rules are rules.... well they should be.

It is nice to have a variation on engine configuration but, and it is a big but, if you have 1000cc for il4to play with or 1100/1200 for twins(depending how far the toys are flung) then get on with it. Is it too much to ask?:dunno:..... or am I over simplifying it:confused:
 
dont kid yourself that its only ducati that moan when the results dont go their way. For decades honda have had pretty much the biggest say in all sorts of motorbike sport, tyres, engines pretty much everything done to keep them happy. they all do it, tho i must admit id prefer it if they didnt all do it quite so often:dizzy:


really need a whimsical emoticon, dont you think
 
3 kgs? Could Haga not just go for a good dump before he throws a leg over? Ive just ordered a Jalfreize, maybe Haga should do the same on a Saturday night? :D
 
Ducati haven't cried and the rules haven't been "changed" for their benefit! When the twins were allowed 1200 against the 1000's,they had to run air restrictors AND a weight penalty.The rules stated that at after a certain number of rounds(3,6 etc i think),they would take the average of the top two 4 cylinders and the average of the two top twins,IF there was a difference of more than 5 points(I think) EITHER way,then weight would be added or taken away.If at the next point the difference is still more than five points(i think) then again weight will be added/removed.When the twins weigh the same as the fours,they will be allowed to reduce the size of the air restrictor.

So,they ARE FOLLOWING THE AGREED RULES,NOT BENDING,CHEATING OR ANYTHING UNDERHAND!!
 
its funny how it only happens in an italian run series though??, 6 different manufacturers in top 7 today, fair racing yet one wants to have the rules swapped?? Aprilia have already proven you can do something different to an il4, Honda swapped to a v2 and did the same when they were forced to. The rules are there, the rest have developed bikes within them, BM and Aprilia had to fight yet now they've got there the rules get changed to suit Ducati again?? I dont care whether you are a Ducati fan or not its fairly obvious its not right.

If one cant compete on even terms to me thats a negative that they cant develop bikes within rules they agreed, If they now start winning it'll just be seen as them bending rules, what good does that do? its reverse marketing so whats the point?

Grr I hate it when they do stuff like this, better to be a good loser than a rule bending winner IMHO
 
Gizmo said:
its funny how it only happens in an italian run series though??, 6 different manufacturers in top 7 today, fair racing yet one wants to have the rules swapped??
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But they don't want to have the rules swapped.The rules were there and agreed by all when the 1200's were allowed to race.



I notice you don't mention the legality of Aprilia running gear driven cams? I am looking forward to seeing the required number of V4's to be made to make it eligible.
 
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Jasper said:
Ducati haven't cried and the rules haven't been "changed" for their benefit! When the twins were allowed 1200 against the 1000's,they had to run air restrictors AND a weight penalty.The rules stated that at after a certain number of rounds(3,6 etc i think),they would take the average of the top two 4 cylinders and the average of the two top twins,IF there was a difference of more than 5 points(I think) EITHER way,then weight would be added or taken away.If at the next point the difference is still more than five points(i think) then again weight will be added/removed.When the twins weigh the same as the fours,they will be allowed to reduce the size of the air restrictor.

So,they ARE FOLLOWING THE AGREED RULES,NOT BENDING,CHEATING OR ANYTHING UNDERHAND!!
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I'll amend title as it is part of averaging scheme, makes no difference though, the averaging is bollocks - 1st and 2nd first race today obviously they need a weight drop
 
I think they've done the right thing, the superiority of the other bikes, Aprilia,Suzuki,Bmw,Yamaha in Monza was quite clear,were the Aprilia was the fastest in a straight line, at the end of the day the only change they're asking for is the extra weight penalty removal and not asking for any engine mods, it is also a well known fact that an il4 develops more power than a twin engine
 
Jasper said:
But they don't want to have the rules swapped.The rules were there and agreed by all when the 1200's were allowed to race.



I notice you don't mention the legality of Aprilia running gear driven cams? I am looking forward to seeing the required number of V4's with to be made to make it eligible.
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I don't think Aprilia have a problem as its allowed and does not require a homologated number, note the rule wording which uses available and significant qty, the homolgation rules for complete bikes are more clearly defined.

FIM rule - "The method of cam drive must remain as homologated unless a complete kit is available through normal commercial channels. These kits must be available in significant quantity and be listed in the racing spare parts book"
 
1st and second in the first race and where in the second.........? One swallow doesn't make a summer etc.
 
Gizmo said:
I don't think Aprilia have a problem as its allowed and does not require a homologated number, note the rule wording which uses available and significant qty, the homolgation rules for complete bikes are more clearly defined.

FIM rule - "The method of cam drive must remain as homologated unless a complete kit is available through normal commercial channels. These kits must be available in significant quantity and be listed in the racing spare parts book"
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3000 bikes isn't it?
 
Jasper said:
3000 bikes isn't it?
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3000 bikes to homolgate a model you can compete with ( its stepped to allow introduction 500 for 1 year but by end year 2 it needs to be 3000 sold, not available), the rule on cams is separate and worded as I quoted, TBH its not clear and I think Aprilia are using a loophole

complete words , you can see that one rule contradicts the other, is it a kit or is the system as homologated?

"The method of cam drive must remain as homologated unless a complete kit is available through normal commercial channels. These kits must be available in significant quantity and be listed in the racing spare parts book
• For 1000cc 3 & 4 cylinders and 1200cc 2 cylinders
Aftermarket or modified cam drive components are allowed, however the cam drive must be in the homologated location and the system must be as homologated."

Aprilia could make a kit available in significant quantities and keep drive in same location but there is an argument as to whether the "system" is homolgated??
 
Oh and on carburation modifications its something like 15 sets made available, nowhere near 3000.
 
Jasper said:
1st and second in the first race and where in the second.........? One swallow doesn't make a summer etc.
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True but we all know certain circuits favour certain bikes/riders and 3 races aint enough to start changing weights. The way its been has been the fairest for ages, no need for any changes, everyone else upped their game to the same level as Ducati and its made for even racing...
 
Gizmo said:
True but we all know certain circuits favour certain bikes/riders and 3 races aint enough to start changing weights. The way its been has been the fairest for ages, no need for any changes, everyone else upped their game to the same level as Ducati and its made for even racing...
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BUT whether you think the rules need changing or not,they are the rules!! If the Ducatis were kicking everybody's arse,then they would have weight added.

The rules have been agreed and that is the rule book everyone is competing from.

As you have stated Michael,we don't want the rules changing,just because someone doesn't like them!!;)

All the best mate.:beer:
 
Its clarified as -Carburation instruments refer to throttle bodies and variable length intake tract devices. :) oh and guess which design of engine is allowed to have an "optional carburation instrument" in minimums of 15 ........ triples and 4's arent so 2 cylinder bikes can use a totally different setup provided they make a minimum of 15 sets available, of course they are limited with air restrictors
 
the minimum amount available bit is a joke. ive tried to order a race kit or two for R1's when i worked for a yamaha dealer and getting them was a nightmare. i think we ended up with 1.5 kits and this was for privateer racers the other sets had gone to higher level race teams and we waited most of the season to get what we did. the chances of any of these minimum amount available race kits getting anywhere near average customers is practically nil. so you can advertise them in your aftermarket parts catalouge, but nobody will be able to bye them.

I would like to point out that the race kits or cam kits we are talking about here arent the normal sort of bolt on cans and an ecu that anybody can by from aftermarket producers, these are genuine factory kit, designed to get them almost to the same spec as factory race bikes and can basically be complete heads, valves camshafts etc
 
Gizmo said:
Oh well i was never a fan of WSB anyway, will stick with MGP where rules are rules and not geared around 1 factory :mad:

Rant over
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Maybe not for a factory in MotoGP but almost certainly the rules were manipulated for 1 rider.............the little Spanish robot................unfortunately for Honda it didn't work:D
 
and the rules have been changed for 2011, as I explained above Aprilia used the wording to give them a loophole on gear driven cams, for 2011 its been altered and simplified to
"The method of cam drive must remain as homologated" now if they used that wording throughout the whole rule book it would actually mean the bikes reflected what goes on sale in a showroom not factory specials built around wording and legal interpretations. Maybe they could add in an engine limit like MGP has and we'd have bikes that go fast and need to be reliable??
 
I posted this on another site on the same topic.and I think you'll find the rules and guidelines were determined (and agreed by the participants) at the start if the year, they are now simply being followed. The Aprilia addition is a late amendment but understandable.

This is the same old debate that rears it's ugly head time and time again. I fully understand why.

Every and any team that races will want rules to accomodate or better still favour their cause. Look at Honda, they do precisely the same with MotoGP. They have been truly caught napping with the 800 class though!

In SBK and Supersport for that matter, you are gonna have to change the rules on a continual basis to try and equate performance of twins versus fours or fours versus triples because that's what these factories make and base their company identity on (Ducati, Triumph, KTM)

Why should they buckle just to produce a bike that is the same? They also want to prove why their way is best - and I like that aspect of our sport.

I don't relish the job of the organisers however, as it will take constant tweaking as factories lead development. The rules will never stay stagnant - they simply can't. There will be constant criticism but we have to trust that the intricacies of the rules ensure fair play.

That's one of the aspects that make the sport interesting and discussion worthy, the pros and cons of each layout and design, which track they work better on, the overall best package etc, etc, etc.

For me, it would be fecking dull to watch all the same configuration firing round all the time, not if you are a twin or a triple fan - no thanks!

As Ducati, Honda, Triumph or anyone else feels they can no longer compete under a particualr legislation - you can bet they will push for a rule change and I don't blame them - the business is toooo big and valuable. The spectacle is way better for us all.

I for one encourage all the manufacturers to compete and welcome the involvement of BMW, KTM, Triumph and whoever else enters the fray.

Rest assured though, as long as they are using different configurations, the rules will never be the same for everyone as every engine is different. Rules will always be used to level the field, period. Long may it continue.

Mart
 
Martin Ducati Glasgow said:
I posted this on another site on the same topic.and I think you'll find the rules and guidelines were determined (and agreed by the participants) at the start if the year, they are now simply being followed. The Aprilia addition is a late amendment but understandable.

This is the same old debate that rears it's ugly head time and time again. I fully understand why.

Every and any team that races will want rules to accomodate or better still favour their cause. Look at Honda, they do precisely the same with MotoGP. They have been truly caught napping with the 800 class though!

In SBK and Supersport for that matter, you are gonna have to change the rules on a continual basis to try and equate performance of twins versus fours or fours versus triples because that's what these factories make and base their company identity on (Ducati, Triumph, KTM)

Why should they buckle just to produce a bike that is the same? They also want to prove why their way is best - and I like that aspect of our sport.

I don't relish the job of the organisers however, as it will take constant tweaking as factories lead development. The rules will never stay stagnant - they simply can't. There will be constant criticism but we have to trust that the intricacies of the rules ensure fair play.

That's one of the aspects that make the sport interesting and discussion worthy, the pros and cons of each layout and design, which track they work better on, the overall best package etc, etc, etc.

For me, it would be fecking dull to watch all the same configuration firing round all the time, not if you are a twin or a triple fan - no thanks!

As Ducati, Honda, Triumph or anyone else feels they can no longer compete under a particualr legislation - you can bet they will push for a rule change and I don't blame them - the business is toooo big and valuable. The spectacle is way better for us all.

I for one encourage all the manufacturers to compete and welcome the involvement of BMW, KTM, Triumph and whoever else enters the fray.

Rest assured though, as long as they are using different configurations, the rules will never be the same for everyone as every engine is different. Rules will always be used to level the field, period. Long may it continue.

Mart
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dont get me wrong Martin, it needs rules but one you start applying handicaps the rules get more complex resulting in the ability to bend or find loopholes as Aprilia have done. my point is that the rules should actually be very simple, if WSB is meant to be production bikes it should be "as homologated" allowing no changes, that stops the likes of Aprilia adding a cam driven race pack they will never make. Keep the wording simple and it works, once you complicate it you get loopholes. Using standard homologated bikes wont detract from the racing nor will it be unsafe, but it would mean WSB has more relevance than it does now where it sits part way between a development class and production and the rule book seems to be the deciding factor rather than the racing.

In all of this it seems to forget that in most racing whats important is the rider and this gets lost when rules keep having to be adapted, Crutchlow, Rea, Haslam Biaggi are the best riders at the moment and it doesn't matter if its IL4 or V4 or V2 its simply talent.
 
Gizmo said:
will stick with MGP where rules are rules and not geared around 1 factory :mad:
Rant over
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And you think Honda didn't force the cc change to try and benefit Pedrosa:rolleyes:

That one blew up in their face just as this will most likely do the same for Ducati..............lets face it they need a new bike if they're gonna keep racing in WSB
 
BJMc said:
And you think Honda didn't force the cc change to try and benefit Pedrosa:rolleyes:

That one blew up in their face just as this will most likely do the same for Ducati..............lets face it they need a new bike if they're gonna keep racing in WSB
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No, I dont think Honda forced the 800 rule change, not the 6 engine limit, nor the fuel capacity restrictions which didn't benefit them :). MGP isn't dominated by one factory, they all have a say just like in WSB. The biggest problem Ducati have faced is the new homologation limit, by getting the 200cc extra they were forced into the higher homologation numbers, air restrictors and weight penalty but its the homologation number stops the R spec specials, at the time it probably didnt look that important but now it is. As it happens its probably worked for them as it'll prevent Aprilia doing a small batch of cam geared bikes which they'ed have been able to do a couple of years ago.

Ducati needed a new bike when the 999 finished it was competing on equal capacity terms ( the only Ducati SBK to do so)and winning races but the Japanese upped the game over the last few years, a V4 has to be under development, if it isn't they are going to have big problems not just in racing but on the showroom floor.
 
Gizmo said:
dont get me wrong Martin, it needs rules but one you start applying handicaps the rules get more complex
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That is the very nature of the discussion, hardly anyone is actually aware of how and when the rules take effect!
When the 1200 capacity hike was allowed no one no one really knew what the differences would be and how they would affect the racing so applicable handicaps HAD TO be applied as and when results were forthcoming. IF twins started to run away with it, they were handicapped, if the opposite happened the handicaps were removed. This has had to be done in a structured fashion following points won and race results. And this is PRECISELY what has happenend through the course of the three seasons the bike has been racing. I would suggest though that it is clear and evident to anyone that watches on TV that the restrictors (top end power) now need removed to allow the twins to keep with the fours on the longer straights.

Gizmo said:
Using standard homologated bikes wont detract from the racing nor will it be unsafe, but it would mean WSB has more relevance than it does now where it sits part way between a development class and production and the rule book seems to be the deciding factor rather than the racing.
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You just described a Superstock race and we already have that to watch. It is no where near the spectacle of the full blown factory Superbike race.
Sounds simple but that is not just why Superbikes is there. SBK also shows the potential for these bikes. The ability to tune is part of the sport. A platform for customers like me and you to aspire to. A development curve for our own machine. (why we buy pipes and carbon wheels etc)
This is ultimately what helps to sell the sport - the factory effort. The awe of people like us imagining what it is like to ride these 'animals'.
Honestly Michael, for me this is the whole idea. It HAS to be between production and racing - that's the whole point!!!

Gizmo said:
In all of this it seems to forget that in most racing whats important is the rider and this gets lost when rules keep having to be adapted, Crutchlow, Rea, Haslam Biaggi are the best riders at the moment and it doesn't matter if its IL4 or V4 or V2 its simply talent.
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There is a massive element of truth in this, it almost doesn't matter what these boys are riding, as long as it is competitive, they'll be in similar positions.
 
Gizmo said:
No, I dont think Honda forced the 800 rule change,
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Mate, it is well documented, they had a serious hand in this. They already had an engine ready before the ruling came into play.

Gizmo said:
not the 6 engine limit, nor the fuel capacity restrictions which didn't benefit them :). MGP isn't dominated by one factory,
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Honda dominated for years mate!
Politically they have been a driving force (for the better I might add) in this sport forever! They pushed through the 4 stroke change (would have happenend anyway of course) and then the 800cc. To think otherwise is unwise.

Gizmo said:
they all have a say just like in WSB. The biggest problem Ducati have faced is the new homologation limit, by getting the 200cc extra they were forced into the higher homologation numbers, air restrictors and weight penalty but its the homologation number stops the R spec specials, at the time it probably didnt look that important but now it is. As it happens its probably worked for them as it'll prevent Aprilia doing a small batch of cam geared bikes which they'ed have been able to do a couple of years ago.
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All true but Ducati knew exactly this before going into the discussions of course.


Gizmo said:
Ducati needed a new bike when the 999 finished it was competing on equal capacity terms ( the only Ducati SBK to do so)and winning races but the Japanese upped the game over the last few years, a V4 has to be under development, if it isn't they are going to have big problems not just in racing but on the showroom floor.
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I'm sorry mate but the 999 was NEVER on equal terms, that is cobblers! Perhaps on cubic capacity but that was the end of it.
The 999 had special dispensation on engine casings, pistons, in fact just about the whole engine had special dispensations to allow it to compete.
Here are a few facts for you. Each 999R SBK cost £250,000. (MotoGP stuff)
Each engine was £50,000 and could be used just twice. (because of the tuning it required to be competitive.
After each use, each engine required a £12,000 rebuild (obviously after the second use it was then scrapped:eek:)

The IL4's were never given this amount of room to tune their bikes. The rules were heavily in Ducati's favour to keep them in the sport.

The rules are far more fair NOW than they have ever been as there is some parity between the regulations on the bikes.
Fair enough, the twin engine is 200cc bigger but to assume this is a grossly unfair advantage would show more of a laymans knowledge of how much power an engine can produce, how engines actually produce their power against torque. And therefore how horsepower & torque results in lap times and performance. (i'm not suggesting this is you mate but this is what we hear from the Ducati 'haters' all the time who are clearly poorly informed)

Mart
 
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