Carbon Wheels, what's with those?

For me, never having ever bought any carbon wheels, if I had the money I'd have some on one of my bikes without doubt.

On the plus side they look the absolute business & for that reason alone I'd have some. They are also very light, albeit magnesium wheels aren't that much heavier & I doubt many of us would ever notice that difference under normal road riding.

On the down side & this is something I'd never considered until a mate of mine bought a carbon swing arm & spoke to Dymag.
Carbon goes brittle with age & it is much harder to "crack test" compared to metal components. With wheels most of us take our wheels to "normal" tyre suppliers & some of them are not the most proficient in tyre changing. Carbon wheels are very easy to damage & a wheel could fail without any warning whatsoever according to the Maclaren designer, can't remember his name, who said he would NEVER use carbon wheels on his cars, bodywork, yes, wheels, NO.

Having said all that I'd still have some, but I'd be very careful who I took them to for tyre changes.
 
This happened way back in 2008:

The British squad said that, due to a process fault during manufacture of the left front wheel, the wheel was not to specification and eventually failed.

"Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and its Official Supplier of wheels have now conducted a thorough technical investigation to determine the exact cause of the failure," the team said in a statement on Thursday.

"It has been established that, owing to a process fault during manufacture, the outer clamp surface of the wheel was given a clear lacquer coating. As a consequence of this fault, the clamp load that attached the wheel was not to specification.

"In running, the consequent loss of load caused the wheel to fret and distort, leading to its eventual failure.

"Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and the wheel supplier have now established new procedures designed to prevent a re-occurrence of this issue."

Kovalainen, who crashed at nearly 145mph, has been cleared to race at this weekend's Turkish Grand Prix.
 
On the down side & this is something I'd never considered until a mate of mine bought a carbon swing arm & spoke to Dymag.
Carbon goes brittle with age & it is much harder to "crack test" compared to metal components. With wheels most of us take our wheels to "normal" tyre suppliers & some of them are not the most proficient in tyre changing. Carbon wheels are very easy to damage & a wheel could fail without any warning whatsoever according to the Maclaren designer, can't remember his name, who said he would NEVER use carbon wheels on his cars, bodywork, yes, wheels, NO.

Having said all that I'd still have some, but I'd be very careful who I took them to for tyre changes.
It's not the carbon but the resin.
And I wouldn't use dymag as a good example.

Dymag use a method called RTM to make their wheels, it makes for a very resin rich wheel which is more brittle than a prepreg rim.
Carbon can take a massive amountof abuse if laid up correctly, but you can't achieve that level of accuracy with something like RTM.

There isn't a tyre fitter in the land who should be scared of putting a tire on a carbon rim if he's conscientious and takes pride in his work. What normally happens is that they gorilla the bead breaker so that it rubs hard on the rim and that generally skims a bit of the resin causing it to dull or if the rim is too resin rich, then break off - which it will do when there's not enough or no carbon reinforcement behind it.

I saw this with my own eyes at Guildford Tire Centre with a carbon rim, where the fitter took a skin off the edge with his gorilla antics. Luckily it was a BST rim, had that been a Dymag or one of those shite deathtrap Krupp wheels off a BMW then I'd imagine that most of its bead would be all over the floor.

At this point, you're ideally going to the supplier and saying dude, your rim has no material other than neat resin, and they tell you to go do one as it was the fitters fault.

With respect to tyre warmers, what a load of bollocks. If dymag said that then it proves how shit they are.

A prepreg wheel is cured at around 150 degrees with a three hour postcure heat soak or longer, and under six bar of pressure.
A heated blanket is going to make fuck all difference to it, especially as it's got to transfer the heat through the tire to the rim as well.

The man you're speaking about is Gordon Murray on an interview he gave when taking about his T50.

Gordon's view is that the lowest common denominator to a road car is the fuckwit piloting it. The carbon wheel will have a different failure mode to a conventional metal rim that may fracture or give you some early warning, however that said I draw your attention to the famous Marvic wheel / dunlop incident at the TT in years gone past, where that wheel also just died on him.

The biggest problem you have with carbon car wheels is that you're prone to lots of kerbing and neglect that a motorcyclist would probably not ignore.
By breed we're more fastidious, although some of the questions over the other side lately do make me wonder about the state of some mouth breathers at the moment.

He (Murray) was citing that there would be no early warning if a carbon rim gave way, unlike an alloy rim that would at least show signs (hopefully) before catastrophic failure.


This happened way back in 2008:

The British squad said that, due to a process fault during manufacture of the left front wheel, the wheel was not to specification and eventually failed.

"Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and its Official Supplier of wheels have now conducted a thorough technical investigation to determine the exact cause of the failure," the team said in a statement on Thursday.

"It has been established that, owing to a process fault during manufacture, the outer clamp surface of the wheel was given a clear lacquer coating. As a consequence of this fault, the clamp load that attached the wheel was not to specification.

"In running, the consequent loss of load caused the wheel to fret and distort, leading to its eventual failure.

"Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and the wheel supplier have now established new procedures designed to prevent a re-occurrence of this issue."

Kovalainen, who crashed at nearly 145mph, has been cleared to race at this weekend's Turkish Grand Prix.

Ok, that's a different case entirely.
Firstly you're talking about a magnesium rim and not a carbon one.

The wheel manufacturer put a clear laquer on the hub nut surface, and that meant that when the wheel nut was gunned on it effectively sat on a shim of clear substrate vs sitting on the metal itself.

Doesn't seem that big a deal at first glance but magnify the loads to the 250-300kph mark and you have a very different set of failure modes coming into play.
the laquer softening for a start causing the clamp load to weaken and fail.

Even if that lacquer was only 5 microns deep, which is wasn't, you've suddenly got a gap of that between the clamping face and the hub nut where the wheel can rattle and hammer itself to pieces at 20000 rpm through vibrations.
 
having the luxury and opportunity to have owned Marvic Penta magnesium wheels for a 996 and Dymag carbons for both a 748 and 999. there was always a concern regarding material failure.
But it was the Marvic wheel that failed on me, and I was lucky to catch it during some pre track day prep ( cleaning) as all the rear spokes had cracked to about 95% the width of the spoke..

As I understand the Dymag wheels wheel had a bonding issue with the single sided rear hub flange to wheel, and this was recalled I think.
also the Carbon rim has a sacrificial laminate around the rim to absorb and fail in the event of an impact, but would you be able to see it with the naked eye? I am not 100% convinced you could and as mentioned above, testing is not assessable to the masses yet.
It will be interesting to see if Ducati will instigate some NDT inspect ( time/ usage based) as now the wheels are OEM fitment, to capture any failure trends if they exist etc

 
having the luxury and opportunity to have owned Marvic Penta magnesium wheels for a 996 and Dymag carbons for both a 748 and 999. there was always a concern regarding material failure.
But it was the Marvic wheel that failed on me, and I was lucky to catch it during some pre track day prep ( cleaning) as all the rear spokes had cracked to about 95% the width of the spoke..

As I understand the Dymag wheels wheel had a bonding issue with the single sided rear hub flange to wheel, and this was recalled I think.
also the Carbon rim has a sacrificial laminate around the rim to absorb and fail in the event of an impact, but would you be able to see it with the naked eye? I am not 100% convinced you could and as mentioned above, testing is not assessable to the masses yet.
It will be interesting to see if Ducati will instigate some NDT inspect ( time/ usage based) as now the wheels are OEM fitment, to capture any failure trends if they exist etc

dymag s 'sacrificial layer' is a piece of rohacell foam.
It sits so that the intent would be that if you had a kerb strike for instance, it absorbs some of the impact and in the case of delamination would decrease the rate at which you'd see a rapid deflation. The carbon will take way more abuse than an alloy rim, until it decides enough is enough. You'll see when a carbon rim has had enough because you'll get fibre delamination and surface deformation.
It'll just happen a lot quicker and more suddenly than a metal rim.

All said and done with their marketing blurb, the Dymag rim is an RTM wheel barrel. The material is put into the mould dry, and all said and done you just don't have the finite control of dry fibres like you do with a prepreg. The process is cheaper and more suited to mass production than prepreg however so when you need to be banging them out like sweets, rtm is your answer, and Chris Shelley loves a bit of cheap.
 
dymag s 'sacrificial layer' is a piece of rohacell foam.
It sits so that the intent would be that if you had a kerb strike for instance, it absorbs some of the impact and in the case of delamination would decrease the rate at which you'd see a rapid deflation. The carbon will take way more abuse than an alloy rim, until it decides enough is enough. You'll see when a carbon rim has had enough because you'll get fibre delamination and surface deformation.
It'll just happen a lot quicker and more suddenly than a metal rim.

All said and done with their marketing blurb, the Dymag rim is an RTM wheel barrel. The material is put into the mould dry, and all said and done you just don't have the finite control of dry fibres like you do with a prepreg. The process is cheaper and more suited to mass production than prepreg however so when you need to be banging them out like sweets, rtm is your answer, and Chris Shelley loves a bit of cheap.
I was going to tag you to respond after I read that - but then I thought Nah, you'll be here soon enough 👀
 
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Hi Sticker Boy 2 Jockey Wilson's Geezer :) (y)
Obviously im no expert... but I don't believe this left the factory like this...and I know that cos only 749R's( to avoid confusion :ROFLMAO:) get gold wheels added ..and the quality of the sticker kit is better.. and fits the fairing!
 
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Obviously im no expert... but I don't believe this left the factory like this...and I know that cos only 749R's( to avoid confusion :ROFLMAO:) get gold wheels added ..and the quality of the sticker kit is better.. and fits the fairing!
That's a beauty 😍 and a proper Homologation model too with a proper Ducati Decal Kit fitted (DP-RS Sticker Kit btw 🤪) I bought it like that at nearly £15K below current market value and it is to be put back to standard as sticker kits don't work :)(y) I see you notice the lurvely period magnesium Corse wheels, they will be swapped for standard too and sold separately for £gazzilions 😊
 
dymag s 'sacrificial layer' is a piece of rohacell foam.
It sits so that the intent would be that if you had a kerb strike for instance, it absorbs some of the impact and in the case of delamination would decrease the rate at which you'd see a rapid deflation. The carbon will take way more abuse than an alloy rim, until it decides enough is enough. You'll see when a carbon rim has had enough because you'll get fibre delamination and surface deformation.
It'll just happen a lot quicker and more suddenly than a metal rim.

All said and done with their marketing blurb, the Dymag rim is an RTM wheel barrel. The material is put into the mould dry, and all said and done you just don't have the finite control of dry fibres like you do with a prepreg. The process is cheaper and more suited to mass production than prepreg however so when you need to be banging them out like sweets, rtm is your answer, and Chris Shelley loves a bit of cheap.
as I understand it only the BST carbon wheel still has the ABE ( fit for purpose/road use) in Germany as the Dymag document was pulled years ago, due to failure as I believe, but may have been re-issued after i moved on the 999.
I actually sold my Dymag wheels on, as I couldn't 100% have confidence in them as i didn't get them new, but with the bike, as History is a real bonus.
I think the point made earlier is a something that someone could capitalise on in regard to 3rd party inspection but I understand its hard to 'see' damage inside carbon structure with regular X-ray, but happy to be educated either way.. :)
 
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